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Number of posts in this thread: 28 (In chronological order)

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 4:19AM
Subject: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
No previous message | Next message →

Hello,

Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly use tab to
navigate comes from?



I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows, Linux, and IOS
for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard more
than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow keys and browser
mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is either
impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow keys. If you use
tab to navigate, you miss lots of information, such as everything in <p> or
<h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals saying,
tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I would say 90% of
web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When I teach people how to use
the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between form
fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys because you get
much more information.

Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen reader
users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is really the way screen
reader users navigate?

It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only accessible
using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.

Thanks,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

From: Reuben Turk
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 4:37AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Brandon,

My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really for
screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to navigate,
since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.

Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all your
elements are machine readable than worrying about how a screen reader moves
between elements.

I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers handle
translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of elements in the
browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.

Cheers,
Reuben.

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly use tab to
> navigate comes from?
>
>
>
> I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows, Linux, and IOS
> for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard more
> than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow keys and browser
> mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is either
> impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow keys. If you use
> tab to navigate, you miss lots of information, such as everything in <p> or
> <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals saying,
> tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I would say 90% of
> web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When I teach people how to use
> the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between form
> fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys because you get
> much more information.
>
> Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen reader
> users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is really the way screen
> reader users navigate?
>
> It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only accessible
> using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > >

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 5:12AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello Reuben,
There were several presenters showing how a screen reader works using their
designs by pressing tab. This was very explicit screen reader only usage,
so it must be a prevailing sentiment.
Arrow keys are supposed to read line by line when you press the arrow key.
I say "If you hit select all, and copy and paste that text into a text
editor, that is very similar to how I see a webpage".
Thank you,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;


On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:37 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Brandon,
>
> My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really for
> screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to navigate,
> since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.
>
> Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all your
> elements are machine readable than worrying about how a screen reader moves
> between elements.
>
> I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers handle
> translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of elements in the
> browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.
>
> Cheers,
> Reuben.
>
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly use tab
> to
> > navigate comes from?
> >
> >
> >
> > I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows, Linux, and
> IOS
> > for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard more
> > than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow keys and
> browser
> > mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is either
> > impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow keys. If you use
> > tab to navigate, you miss lots of information, such as everything in <p>
> or
> > <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals saying,
> > tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I would say 90% of
> > web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When I teach people how to
> use
> > the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between form
> > fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys because you
> get
> > much more information.
> >
> > Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen reader
> > users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is really the way
> screen
> > reader users navigate?
> >
> > It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only accessible
> > using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: Steve Green
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 7:21AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

The idea that screen reader users use the Tab key for web navigation is very common among developers. I see this all the time when we are doing screen reader training or pairing with them to fix issues. It's a clear indication that they have never had any professional training on assistive technologies, which is shocking but absolutely normal. However, it's worth noting that the Tab key is used extensively for navigating desktop applications.

To address Reuben's question, the arrow keys navigate within the screen reader's virtual object model, not the DOM. Depending on what type of element has focus in the virtual object model, pressing certain keys such as Enter or Spacebar causes a change in the DOM. This only applies to websites - desktop applications don't have a virtual object model so keystrokes are passed directly to the application.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
Sent: 11 October 2018 12:13
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

Hello Reuben,
There were several presenters showing how a screen reader works using their designs by pressing tab. This was very explicit screen reader only usage, so it must be a prevailing sentiment.
Arrow keys are supposed to read line by line when you press the arrow key.
I say "If you hit select all, and copy and paste that text into a text editor, that is very similar to how I see a webpage".
Thank you,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;


On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:37 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Brandon,
>
> My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really for
> screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to navigate,
> since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.
>
> Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all
> your elements are machine readable than worrying about how a screen
> reader moves between elements.
>
> I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers
> handle translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of elements
> in the browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.
>
> Cheers,
> Reuben.
>
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly use
> > tab
> to
> > navigate comes from?
> >
> >
> >
> > I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows, Linux,
> > and
> IOS
> > for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard
> > more than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow keys
> > and
> browser
> > mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is
> > either impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow
> > keys. If you use tab to navigate, you miss lots of information, such
> > as everything in <p>
> or
> > <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals
> > saying, tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I
> > would say 90% of web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When I
> > teach people how to
> use
> > the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between
> > form fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys
> > because you
> get
> > much more information.
> >
> > Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen
> > reader users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is really
> > the way
> screen
> > reader users navigate?
> >
> > It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only
> > accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: Julie Romanowski
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 7:26AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

Are you implying that screen reader users don't use the tab key for web navigation? I know a few JAWS user (blind or have limited vision) who do use the tab key (among other key commands) for web navigation.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:21 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

The idea that screen reader users use the Tab key for web navigation is very common among developers. I see this all the time when we are doing screen reader training or pairing with them to fix issues. It's a clear indication that they have never had any professional training on assistive technologies, which is shocking but absolutely normal. However, it's worth noting that the Tab key is used extensively for navigating desktop applications.

To address Reuben's question, the arrow keys navigate within the screen reader's virtual object model, not the DOM. Depending on what type of element has focus in the virtual object model, pressing certain keys such as Enter or Spacebar causes a change in the DOM. This only applies to websites - desktop applications don't have a virtual object model so keystrokes are passed directly to the application.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
Sent: 11 October 2018 12:13
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

Hello Reuben,
There were several presenters showing how a screen reader works using their designs by pressing tab. This was very explicit screen reader only usage, so it must be a prevailing sentiment.
Arrow keys are supposed to read line by line when you press the arrow key.
I say "If you hit select all, and copy and paste that text into a text editor, that is very similar to how I see a webpage".
Thank you,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;


On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:37 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Brandon,
>
> My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really for
> screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to navigate,
> since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.
>
> Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all
> your elements are machine readable than worrying about how a screen
> reader moves between elements.
>
> I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers
> handle translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of elements
> in the browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.
>
> Cheers,
> Reuben.
>
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly use
> > tab
> to
> > navigate comes from?
> >
> >
> >
> > I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows, Linux,
> > and
> IOS
> > for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard
> > more than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow keys
> > and
> browser
> > mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is
> > either impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow
> > keys. If you use tab to navigate, you miss lots of information, such
> > as everything in <p>
> or
> > <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals
> > saying, tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I
> > would say 90% of web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When I
> > teach people how to
> use
> > the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between
> > form fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys
> > because you
> get
> > much more information.
> >
> > Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen
> > reader users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is really
> > the way
> screen
> > reader users navigate?
> >
> > It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only
> > accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: Steve Green
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 7:33AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

They use it for certain things, such as forms, but they predominantly use the arrow keys. There are a few very basic screen readers where you do use the Tab key but they have limited capability and are not widely used.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Julie Romanowski
Sent: 11 October 2018 14:27
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

Are you implying that screen reader users don't use the tab key for web navigation? I know a few JAWS user (blind or have limited vision) who do use the tab key (among other key commands) for web navigation.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:21 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

The idea that screen reader users use the Tab key for web navigation is very common among developers. I see this all the time when we are doing screen reader training or pairing with them to fix issues. It's a clear indication that they have never had any professional training on assistive technologies, which is shocking but absolutely normal. However, it's worth noting that the Tab key is used extensively for navigating desktop applications.

To address Reuben's question, the arrow keys navigate within the screen reader's virtual object model, not the DOM. Depending on what type of element has focus in the virtual object model, pressing certain keys such as Enter or Spacebar causes a change in the DOM. This only applies to websites - desktop applications don't have a virtual object model so keystrokes are passed directly to the application.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
Sent: 11 October 2018 12:13
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

Hello Reuben,
There were several presenters showing how a screen reader works using their designs by pressing tab. This was very explicit screen reader only usage, so it must be a prevailing sentiment.
Arrow keys are supposed to read line by line when you press the arrow key.
I say "If you hit select all, and copy and paste that text into a text editor, that is very similar to how I see a webpage".
Thank you,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;


On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:37 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Brandon,
>
> My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really for
> screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to navigate,
> since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.
>
> Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all
> your elements are machine readable than worrying about how a screen
> reader moves between elements.
>
> I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers
> handle translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of elements
> in the browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.
>
> Cheers,
> Reuben.
>
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly use
> > tab
> to
> > navigate comes from?
> >
> >
> >
> > I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows, Linux,
> > and
> IOS
> > for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard
> > more than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow keys
> > and
> browser
> > mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is
> > either impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow
> > keys. If you use tab to navigate, you miss lots of information, such
> > as everything in <p>
> or
> > <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals
> > saying, tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I
> > would say 90% of web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When I
> > teach people how to
> use
> > the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between
> > form fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys
> > because you
> get
> > much more information.
> >
> > Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen
> > reader users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is really
> > the way
> screen
> > reader users navigate?
> >
> > It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only
> > accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: Reuben Turk
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 7:54AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks for the info Steve.

I guess the part I'm not understanding relates to this part of the original
post:

"It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only accessible using
tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys."

If the screen reader is doing the heavy lifting in terms of allowing
advanced navigation with various keyboard keys, how does the common
practice of developing for the browsers' default tab-based navigation
inhibit that?


On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 at 00:21, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> The idea that screen reader users use the Tab key for web navigation is
> very common among developers. I see this all the time when we are doing
> screen reader training or pairing with them to fix issues. It's a clear
> indication that they have never had any professional training on assistive
> technologies, which is shocking but absolutely normal. However, it's worth
> noting that the Tab key is used extensively for navigating desktop
> applications.
>
> To address Reuben's question, the arrow keys navigate within the screen
> reader's virtual object model, not the DOM. Depending on what type of
> element has focus in the virtual object model, pressing certain keys such
> as Enter or Spacebar causes a change in the DOM. This only applies to
> websites - desktop applications don't have a virtual object model so
> keystrokes are passed directly to the application.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: 11 October 2018 12:13
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for
> Main Navigation Come From?
>
> Hello Reuben,
> There were several presenters showing how a screen reader works using
> their designs by pressing tab. This was very explicit screen reader only
> usage, so it must be a prevailing sentiment.
> Arrow keys are supposed to read line by line when you press the arrow key.
> I say "If you hit select all, and copy and paste that text into a text
> editor, that is very similar to how I see a webpage".
> Thank you,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:37 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hi Brandon,
> >
> > My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really for
> > screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to navigate,
> > since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.
> >
> > Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all
> > your elements are machine readable than worrying about how a screen
> > reader moves between elements.
> >
> > I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers
> > handle translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of elements
> > in the browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Reuben.
> >
> > On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly use
> > > tab
> > to
> > > navigate comes from?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows, Linux,
> > > and
> > IOS
> > > for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard
> > > more than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow keys
> > > and
> > browser
> > > mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is
> > > either impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow
> > > keys. If you use tab to navigate, you miss lots of information, such
> > > as everything in <p>
> > or
> > > <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals
> > > saying, tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I
> > > would say 90% of web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When I
> > > teach people how to
> > use
> > > the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between
> > > form fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys
> > > because you
> > get
> > > much more information.
> > >
> > > Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen
> > > reader users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is really
> > > the way
> > screen
> > > reader users navigate?
> > >
> > > It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only
> > > accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > >
> > > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >

From: Steve Green
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 8:05AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

When you use the Tab key to navigate, only focusable elements receive focus, such as links and form controls. By contrast, when you use the arrow keys to navigate through the virtual object model, you can access all the content. Furthermore, in "virtual cursor mode", focusable elements are announced differently.

The consequence is that testing a website by using only the Tab key tells you nothing about how the website will behave in "virtual cursor mode".

A couple of seconds ago on another email list, a blind person said "We've got some internal services, that were purchased from an external provider. The content is forcing screen readers to run in application mode, which was assumed to be ok as screen reader users only use the tab key right?" He is very, very unhappy about that.

The reason that "application mode" is a bad experience when used inappropriately, is that all keystrokes are passed directly to the browser. You can't use any of the usual shortcuts such as pressing H to jump to the next heading. You also can't use the arrow keys to read word by word or letter by letter.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Reuben Turk
Sent: 11 October 2018 14:54
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

Thanks for the info Steve.

I guess the part I'm not understanding relates to this part of the original
post:

"It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys."

If the screen reader is doing the heavy lifting in terms of allowing advanced navigation with various keyboard keys, how does the common practice of developing for the browsers' default tab-based navigation inhibit that?


On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 at 00:21, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> The idea that screen reader users use the Tab key for web navigation
> is very common among developers. I see this all the time when we are
> doing screen reader training or pairing with them to fix issues. It's
> a clear indication that they have never had any professional training
> on assistive technologies, which is shocking but absolutely normal.
> However, it's worth noting that the Tab key is used extensively for
> navigating desktop applications.
>
> To address Reuben's question, the arrow keys navigate within the
> screen reader's virtual object model, not the DOM. Depending on what
> type of element has focus in the virtual object model, pressing
> certain keys such as Enter or Spacebar causes a change in the DOM.
> This only applies to websites - desktop applications don't have a
> virtual object model so keystrokes are passed directly to the application.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: 11 October 2018 12:13
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab
> for Main Navigation Come From?
>
> Hello Reuben,
> There were several presenters showing how a screen reader works using
> their designs by pressing tab. This was very explicit screen reader
> only usage, so it must be a prevailing sentiment.
> Arrow keys are supposed to read line by line when you press the arrow key.
> I say "If you hit select all, and copy and paste that text into a text
> editor, that is very similar to how I see a webpage".
> Thank you,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:37 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hi Brandon,
> >
> > My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really
> > for screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to
> > navigate, since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.
> >
> > Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all
> > your elements are machine readable than worrying about how a screen
> > reader moves between elements.
> >
> > I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers
> > handle translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of elements
> > in the browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Reuben.
> >
> > On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly
> > > use tab
> > to
> > > navigate comes from?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows,
> > > Linux, and
> > IOS
> > > for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard
> > > more than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow
> > > keys and
> > browser
> > > mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is
> > > either impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow
> > > keys. If you use tab to navigate, you miss lots of information,
> > > such as everything in <p>
> > or
> > > <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals
> > > saying, tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I
> > > would say 90% of web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When
> > > I teach people how to
> > use
> > > the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between
> > > form fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys
> > > because you
> > get
> > > much more information.
> > >
> > > Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen
> > > reader users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is
> > > really the way
> > screen
> > > reader users navigate?
> > >
> > > It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only
> > > accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > >
> > > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: glen walker
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 8:04AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Reuben, I was wondering the same thing and hope Brandon can clarify that
part of his question, but my guess was that if you only focus on tab
navigation, then the developer will make sure that all form elements have
an accessible name and all links have appropriate context but they might
not focus on other semantic elements such as headings, lists, tables,
images, etc, which are only navigated to using screen reader shortcut keys
or via the arrow keys. If that happens, then the screen reader user would
miss out on a lot of information and organization that is not properly
tagged.

I use the tab key as one of my first testing scenarios to make sure I can
get to and interact with all interactive elements, that they all have a
focus indicator, and that they all have an accessible name.

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 7:54 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

>
> I guess the part I'm not understanding relates to this part of the original
> post:
>
> "It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only accessible
> using
> tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys."
>
>
>

From: Reuben Turk
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 8:26AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

That helps to make more sense of it.

Aside from misusing aria roles and form related elements, what other things
might cause problems with mode selection?



On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 at 01:05, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> When you use the Tab key to navigate, only focusable elements receive
> focus, such as links and form controls. By contrast, when you use the arrow
> keys to navigate through the virtual object model, you can access all the
> content. Furthermore, in "virtual cursor mode", focusable elements are
> announced differently.
>
> The consequence is that testing a website by using only the Tab key tells
> you nothing about how the website will behave in "virtual cursor mode".
>
> A couple of seconds ago on another email list, a blind person said "We've
> got some internal services, that were purchased from an external provider.
> The content is forcing screen readers to run in application mode, which was
> assumed to be ok as screen reader users only use the tab key right?" He is
> very, very unhappy about that.
>
> The reason that "application mode" is a bad experience when used
> inappropriately, is that all keystrokes are passed directly to the browser.
> You can't use any of the usual shortcuts such as pressing H to jump to the
> next heading. You also can't use the arrow keys to read word by word or
> letter by letter.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Reuben Turk
> Sent: 11 October 2018 14:54
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for
> Main Navigation Come From?
>
> Thanks for the info Steve.
>
> I guess the part I'm not understanding relates to this part of the original
> post:
>
> "It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only accessible
> using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys."
>
> If the screen reader is doing the heavy lifting in terms of allowing
> advanced navigation with various keyboard keys, how does the common
> practice of developing for the browsers' default tab-based navigation
> inhibit that?
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 at 00:21, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > The idea that screen reader users use the Tab key for web navigation
> > is very common among developers. I see this all the time when we are
> > doing screen reader training or pairing with them to fix issues. It's
> > a clear indication that they have never had any professional training
> > on assistive technologies, which is shocking but absolutely normal.
> > However, it's worth noting that the Tab key is used extensively for
> > navigating desktop applications.
> >
> > To address Reuben's question, the arrow keys navigate within the
> > screen reader's virtual object model, not the DOM. Depending on what
> > type of element has focus in the virtual object model, pressing
> > certain keys such as Enter or Spacebar causes a change in the DOM.
> > This only applies to websites - desktop applications don't have a
> > virtual object model so keystrokes are passed directly to the
> application.
> >
> > Steve Green
> > Managing Director
> > Test Partners Ltd
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> > Brandon Keith Biggs
> > Sent: 11 October 2018 12:13
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab
> > for Main Navigation Come From?
> >
> > Hello Reuben,
> > There were several presenters showing how a screen reader works using
> > their designs by pressing tab. This was very explicit screen reader
> > only usage, so it must be a prevailing sentiment.
> > Arrow keys are supposed to read line by line when you press the arrow
> key.
> > I say "If you hit select all, and copy and paste that text into a text
> > editor, that is very similar to how I see a webpage".
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:37 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Brandon,
> > >
> > > My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really
> > > for screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to
> > > navigate, since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.
> > >
> > > Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all
> > > your elements are machine readable than worrying about how a screen
> > > reader moves between elements.
> > >
> > > I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers
> > > handle translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of elements
> > > in the browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Reuben.
> > >
> > > On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <
> > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly
> > > > use tab
> > > to
> > > > navigate comes from?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows,
> > > > Linux, and
> > > IOS
> > > > for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard
> > > > more than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow
> > > > keys and
> > > browser
> > > > mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is
> > > > either impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow
> > > > keys. If you use tab to navigate, you miss lots of information,
> > > > such as everything in <p>
> > > or
> > > > <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals
> > > > saying, tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I
> > > > would say 90% of web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When
> > > > I teach people how to
> > > use
> > > > the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between
> > > > form fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys
> > > > because you
> > > get
> > > > much more information.
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen
> > > > reader users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is
> > > > really the way
> > > screen
> > > > reader users navigate?
> > > >
> > > > It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only
> > > > accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >

From: Michael Bullis
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 8:44AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

I'd like to think of myself as a pretty experienced screen reader user and I seldom, if ever, think of using tab navigation. I first look at headings with the h and if that doesn't work I use the n key for "next blank line, because it's most likely to get me to new sections. If the site clearly indicates tab navigation I'll use it.


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen walker
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 10:05 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

Hi Reuben, I was wondering the same thing and hope Brandon can clarify that part of his question, but my guess was that if you only focus on tab navigation, then the developer will make sure that all form elements have an accessible name and all links have appropriate context but they might not focus on other semantic elements such as headings, lists, tables, images, etc, which are only navigated to using screen reader shortcut keys or via the arrow keys. If that happens, then the screen reader user would miss out on a lot of information and organization that is not properly tagged.

I use the tab key as one of my first testing scenarios to make sure I can get to and interact with all interactive elements, that they all have a focus indicator, and that they all have an accessible name.

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 7:54 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

>
> I guess the part I'm not understanding relates to this part of the
> original
> post:
>
> "It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only
> accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys."
>
>
>

From: Steve Green
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 8:58AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

Sometimes components only work if you put the screen reader into "forms mode" or "application mode", but there is no way to know that you need to do this. For instance, I often see this with sliders, date pickers and other custom controls.

Sometimes, the website is designed to force the screen reader into "application mode" but the user won't be expecting this and won't understand what's happening. All they know is that the arrow keys don't behave as normal and the shortcuts no longer work.

There are some valid reasons for using "application mode" but my experience has been that it's usually a bad user experience so it should be used judiciously.

This is exactly why I constantly advocate that developers and testers should spend time observing real users of assistive technologies. You don't need to wait for a formal user testing project - I did this 15 years ago by making contact with screen reader users via disability support groups and paying a nominal amount to visit and watch them for a few hours.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Reuben Turk
Sent: 11 October 2018 15:27
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

That helps to make more sense of it.

Aside from misusing aria roles and form related elements, what other things might cause problems with mode selection?



On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 at 01:05, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> When you use the Tab key to navigate, only focusable elements receive
> focus, such as links and form controls. By contrast, when you use the
> arrow keys to navigate through the virtual object model, you can
> access all the content. Furthermore, in "virtual cursor mode",
> focusable elements are announced differently.
>
> The consequence is that testing a website by using only the Tab key
> tells you nothing about how the website will behave in "virtual cursor mode".
>
> A couple of seconds ago on another email list, a blind person said
> "We've got some internal services, that were purchased from an external provider.
> The content is forcing screen readers to run in application mode,
> which was assumed to be ok as screen reader users only use the tab key
> right?" He is very, very unhappy about that.
>
> The reason that "application mode" is a bad experience when used
> inappropriately, is that all keystrokes are passed directly to the browser.
> You can't use any of the usual shortcuts such as pressing H to jump to
> the next heading. You also can't use the arrow keys to read word by
> word or letter by letter.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Reuben Turk
> Sent: 11 October 2018 14:54
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab
> for Main Navigation Come From?
>
> Thanks for the info Steve.
>
> I guess the part I'm not understanding relates to this part of the
> original
> post:
>
> "It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only
> accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys."
>
> If the screen reader is doing the heavy lifting in terms of allowing
> advanced navigation with various keyboard keys, how does the common
> practice of developing for the browsers' default tab-based navigation
> inhibit that?
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 at 00:21, Steve Green
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > The idea that screen reader users use the Tab key for web navigation
> > is very common among developers. I see this all the time when we are
> > doing screen reader training or pairing with them to fix issues.
> > It's a clear indication that they have never had any professional
> > training on assistive technologies, which is shocking but absolutely normal.
> > However, it's worth noting that the Tab key is used extensively for
> > navigating desktop applications.
> >
> > To address Reuben's question, the arrow keys navigate within the
> > screen reader's virtual object model, not the DOM. Depending on what
> > type of element has focus in the virtual object model, pressing
> > certain keys such as Enter or Spacebar causes a change in the DOM.
> > This only applies to websites - desktop applications don't have a
> > virtual object model so keystrokes are passed directly to the
> application.
> >
> > Steve Green
> > Managing Director
> > Test Partners Ltd
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
> > Of Brandon Keith Biggs
> > Sent: 11 October 2018 12:13
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use
> > Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
> >
> > Hello Reuben,
> > There were several presenters showing how a screen reader works
> > using their designs by pressing tab. This was very explicit screen
> > reader only usage, so it must be a prevailing sentiment.
> > Arrow keys are supposed to read line by line when you press the
> > arrow
> key.
> > I say "If you hit select all, and copy and paste that text into a
> > text editor, that is very similar to how I see a webpage".
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:37 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Brandon,
> > >
> > > My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really
> > > for screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to
> > > navigate, since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.
> > >
> > > Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all
> > > your elements are machine readable than worrying about how a
> > > screen reader moves between elements.
> > >
> > > I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers
> > > handle translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of
> > > elements in the browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Reuben.
> > >
> > > On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <
> > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly
> > > > use tab
> > > to
> > > > navigate comes from?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows,
> > > > Linux, and
> > > IOS
> > > > for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my
> > > > keyboard more than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are
> > > > the arrow keys and
> > > browser
> > > > mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it
> > > > is either impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the
> > > > arrow keys. If you use tab to navigate, you miss lots of
> > > > information, such as everything in <p>
> > > or
> > > > <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility
> > > > professionals saying, tab is not how I move through a page at
> > > > all. In fact, I would say 90% of web pages I visit I never press
> > > > the tab key. When I teach people how to
> > > use
> > > > the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate
> > > > between form fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the
> > > > arrow keys because you
> > > get
> > > > much more information.
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen
> > > > reader users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is
> > > > really the way
> > > screen
> > > > reader users navigate?
> > > >
> > > > It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only
> > > > accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: Julie Romanowski
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 9:10AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

As I mentioned in my earlier reply, I know JAWS users who use the tab key along with other key commands to navigate web pages. There are several blind and limited vision JAWS users (from novice to power user) at my company, and as an accessibility specialist, I have worked with every one of them at one time or another. Every single one of them used the tab key to navigate through actionable elements on the screen (not just form elements).

There are a multitude of ways screen reader users can navigate web pages, and as an accessibility specialist, I do my best to test as many of those ways as possible, including using the tab key. In addition, I've run into instances where tab key behavior worked as expected in keyboard-only testing, but failed in screen reader testing (e.g., unable to tab to links or form elements). There have also been a couple of instances where a customer, who was a screen reader user, contacted us to report issues with tabbing to actionable items on pages in our dotcom site, which were missed because the testers didn't try tabbing through all actionable items in their screen reader testing.

I agree that only using the tab key to navigate webpages when doing screen reader testing is a rookie mistake. However, ignoring the tab key or only using it to navigate form controls when doing screen reader testing is also a mistake and can cause the tester to miss some potentially serious accessibility issues.


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:34 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

They use it for certain things, such as forms, but they predominantly use the arrow keys. There are a few very basic screen readers where you do use the Tab key but they have limited capability and are not widely used.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Julie Romanowski
Sent: 11 October 2018 14:27
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

Are you implying that screen reader users don't use the tab key for web navigation? I know a few JAWS user (blind or have limited vision) who do use the tab key (among other key commands) for web navigation.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:21 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

The idea that screen reader users use the Tab key for web navigation is very common among developers. I see this all the time when we are doing screen reader training or pairing with them to fix issues. It's a clear indication that they have never had any professional training on assistive technologies, which is shocking but absolutely normal. However, it's worth noting that the Tab key is used extensively for navigating desktop applications.

To address Reuben's question, the arrow keys navigate within the screen reader's virtual object model, not the DOM. Depending on what type of element has focus in the virtual object model, pressing certain keys such as Enter or Spacebar causes a change in the DOM. This only applies to websites - desktop applications don't have a virtual object model so keystrokes are passed directly to the application.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
Sent: 11 October 2018 12:13
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

Hello Reuben,
There were several presenters showing how a screen reader works using their designs by pressing tab. This was very explicit screen reader only usage, so it must be a prevailing sentiment.
Arrow keys are supposed to read line by line when you press the arrow key.
I say "If you hit select all, and copy and paste that text into a text editor, that is very similar to how I see a webpage".
Thank you,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;


On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:37 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Brandon,
>
> My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really for
> screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to navigate,
> since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.
>
> Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all
> your elements are machine readable than worrying about how a screen
> reader moves between elements.
>
> I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers
> handle translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of elements
> in the browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.
>
> Cheers,
> Reuben.
>
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly use
> > tab
> to
> > navigate comes from?
> >
> >
> >
> > I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows, Linux,
> > and
> IOS
> > for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard
> > more than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow keys
> > and
> browser
> > mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is
> > either impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow
> > keys. If you use tab to navigate, you miss lots of information, such
> > as everything in <p>
> or
> > <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals
> > saying, tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I
> > would say 90% of web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When I
> > teach people how to
> use
> > the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between
> > form fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys
> > because you
> get
> > much more information.
> >
> > Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen
> > reader users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is really
> > the way
> screen
> > reader users navigate?
> >
> > It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only
> > accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 9:38AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

I agree with the views expressed against application mode -- I've not only seen web apps force screen reader users into application mode but also then put labels, groups, and grid cells into the focus order -- forcing the user to navigate through everything without any option for quick navigation past these elements. The organizations claim the product is Section 508 conformant. I've actually written JAWS scripts to remove the role application from the page at run time through the document loaded event to allow the user to use browse mode/virtual cursor mode.

On a related note the same application would only assign an accessible name to input fields on focus -- so once in virtual cursor mode when you navigated to an input or checkbox it had no accessible name until it was actually focused -- since JAWS doesn't focus elements in the VC mode unless you tab to them the control appeared as having no accessible name.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office

Visit us online:
Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog

Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 10:05 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

When you use the Tab key to navigate, only focusable elements receive focus, such as links and form controls. By contrast, when you use the arrow keys to navigate through the virtual object model, you can access all the content. Furthermore, in "virtual cursor mode", focusable elements are announced differently.

The consequence is that testing a website by using only the Tab key tells you nothing about how the website will behave in "virtual cursor mode".

A couple of seconds ago on another email list, a blind person said "We've got some internal services, that were purchased from an external provider. The content is forcing screen readers to run in application mode, which was assumed to be ok as screen reader users only use the tab key right?" He is very, very unhappy about that.

The reason that "application mode" is a bad experience when used inappropriately, is that all keystrokes are passed directly to the browser. You can't use any of the usual shortcuts such as pressing H to jump to the next heading. You also can't use the arrow keys to read word by word or letter by letter.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Reuben Turk
Sent: 11 October 2018 14:54
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

Thanks for the info Steve.

I guess the part I'm not understanding relates to this part of the original
post:

"It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys."

If the screen reader is doing the heavy lifting in terms of allowing advanced navigation with various keyboard keys, how does the common practice of developing for the browsers' default tab-based navigation inhibit that?


On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 at 00:21, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> The idea that screen reader users use the Tab key for web navigation
> is very common among developers. I see this all the time when we are
> doing screen reader training or pairing with them to fix issues. It's
> a clear indication that they have never had any professional training
> on assistive technologies, which is shocking but absolutely normal.
> However, it's worth noting that the Tab key is used extensively for
> navigating desktop applications.
>
> To address Reuben's question, the arrow keys navigate within the
> screen reader's virtual object model, not the DOM. Depending on what
> type of element has focus in the virtual object model, pressing
> certain keys such as Enter or Spacebar causes a change in the DOM.
> This only applies to websites - desktop applications don't have a
> virtual object model so keystrokes are passed directly to the application.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: 11 October 2018 12:13
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab
> for Main Navigation Come From?
>
> Hello Reuben,
> There were several presenters showing how a screen reader works using
> their designs by pressing tab. This was very explicit screen reader
> only usage, so it must be a prevailing sentiment.
> Arrow keys are supposed to read line by line when you press the arrow key.
> I say "If you hit select all, and copy and paste that text into a text
> editor, that is very similar to how I see a webpage".
> Thank you,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:37 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hi Brandon,
> >
> > My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really
> > for screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to
> > navigate, since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.
> >
> > Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all
> > your elements are machine readable than worrying about how a screen
> > reader moves between elements.
> >
> > I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers
> > handle translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of elements
> > in the browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Reuben.
> >
> > On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly
> > > use tab
> > to
> > > navigate comes from?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows,
> > > Linux, and
> > IOS
> > > for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard
> > > more than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow
> > > keys and
> > browser
> > > mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is
> > > either impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow
> > > keys. If you use tab to navigate, you miss lots of information,
> > > such as everything in <p>
> > or
> > > <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals
> > > saying, tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I
> > > would say 90% of web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When
> > > I teach people how to
> > use
> > > the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between
> > > form fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys
> > > because you
> > get
> > > much more information.
> > >
> > > Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen
> > > reader users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is
> > > really the way
> > screen
> > > reader users navigate?
> > >
> > > It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only
> > > accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > >
> > > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 10:23AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,

There was a talk on charts and graphs that showed the tester only using the
tab key to move through the chart:

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayl2ue9vIFc&list=PLn7dsvRdQEfEnBxpVztmJ8KCKNJ_P-hR6
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayl2ue9vIFc&list=PLn7dsvRdQEfEnBxpVztmJ8KCKNJ_P-hR6>*

I hope that up and down arrow keys would work in this case!



Yes, second on the custom rolled interfaces. There is a place in
non-semantic interfaces for limiting a screen reader to edit mode, but it's
hard to justify.



In Google docs, the only way to navigate through tables is with the tab key.



Developers try so hard to make sure all these elements are accessible with
the tab key, but frankly it doesn't lead to a good UX. For example, I would
love to be able to press tab on an interface and have it switch tabs
without making me go through all the links on the page. But rather than
focusing on improving the UX of the whole keyboard, developers try and use
a single key to do all navigation.



NVDA just told everyone they collect usage data when they use NVDA, I would
love to see if they have numbers on how much tab is used vs other keys.

Thanks,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;


On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 8:10 AM Julie Romanowski <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> As I mentioned in my earlier reply, I know JAWS users who use the tab key
> along with other key commands to navigate web pages. There are several
> blind and limited vision JAWS users (from novice to power user) at my
> company, and as an accessibility specialist, I have worked with every one
> of them at one time or another. Every single one of them used the tab key
> to navigate through actionable elements on the screen (not just form
> elements).
>
> There are a multitude of ways screen reader users can navigate web pages,
> and as an accessibility specialist, I do my best to test as many of those
> ways as possible, including using the tab key. In addition, I've run into
> instances where tab key behavior worked as expected in keyboard-only
> testing, but failed in screen reader testing (e.g., unable to tab to links
> or form elements). There have also been a couple of instances where a
> customer, who was a screen reader user, contacted us to report issues with
> tabbing to actionable items on pages in our dotcom site, which were missed
> because the testers didn't try tabbing through all actionable items in
> their screen reader testing.
>
> I agree that only using the tab key to navigate webpages when doing screen
> reader testing is a rookie mistake. However, ignoring the tab key or only
> using it to navigate form controls when doing screen reader testing is also
> a mistake and can cause the tester to miss some potentially serious
> accessibility issues.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Steve Green
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:34 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users
> Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
>
> They use it for certain things, such as forms, but they predominantly use
> the arrow keys. There are a few very basic screen readers where you do use
> the Tab key but they have limited capability and are not widely used.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Julie Romanowski
> Sent: 11 October 2018 14:27
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for
> Main Navigation Come From?
>
> Are you implying that screen reader users don't use the tab key for web
> navigation? I know a few JAWS user (blind or have limited vision) who do
> use the tab key (among other key commands) for web navigation.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Steve Green
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:21 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users
> Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
>
> The idea that screen reader users use the Tab key for web navigation is
> very common among developers. I see this all the time when we are doing
> screen reader training or pairing with them to fix issues. It's a clear
> indication that they have never had any professional training on assistive
> technologies, which is shocking but absolutely normal. However, it's worth
> noting that the Tab key is used extensively for navigating desktop
> applications.
>
> To address Reuben's question, the arrow keys navigate within the screen
> reader's virtual object model, not the DOM. Depending on what type of
> element has focus in the virtual object model, pressing certain keys such
> as Enter or Spacebar causes a change in the DOM. This only applies to
> websites - desktop applications don't have a virtual object model so
> keystrokes are passed directly to the application.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: 11 October 2018 12:13
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for
> Main Navigation Come From?
>
> Hello Reuben,
> There were several presenters showing how a screen reader works using
> their designs by pressing tab. This was very explicit screen reader only
> usage, so it must be a prevailing sentiment.
> Arrow keys are supposed to read line by line when you press the arrow key.
> I say "If you hit select all, and copy and paste that text into a text
> editor, that is very similar to how I see a webpage".
> Thank you,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:37 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hi Brandon,
> >
> > My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really for
> > screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to navigate,
> > since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.
> >
> > Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all
> > your elements are machine readable than worrying about how a screen
> > reader moves between elements.
> >
> > I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers
> > handle translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of elements
> > in the browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Reuben.
> >
> > On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly use
> > > tab
> > to
> > > navigate comes from?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows, Linux,
> > > and
> > IOS
> > > for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard
> > > more than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow keys
> > > and
> > browser
> > > mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is
> > > either impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow
> > > keys. If you use tab to navigate, you miss lots of information, such
> > > as everything in <p>
> > or
> > > <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals
> > > saying, tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I
> > > would say 90% of web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When I
> > > teach people how to
> > use
> > > the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between
> > > form fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys
> > > because you
> > get
> > > much more information.
> > >
> > > Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen
> > > reader users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is really
> > > the way
> > screen
> > > reader users navigate?
> > >
> > > It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only
> > > accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > >
> > > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > > >

From: Julie Romanowski
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 10:27AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

I would be great if NVDA could share the usage data being collected. I would definitely be interested in their findings.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 11:24 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

Hello,

There was a talk on charts and graphs that showed the tester only using the
tab key to move through the chart:

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayl2ue9vIFc&list=PLn7dsvRdQEfEnBxpVztmJ8KCKNJ_P-hR6
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayl2ue9vIFc&list=PLn7dsvRdQEfEnBxpVztmJ8KCKNJ_P-hR6>*

I hope that up and down arrow keys would work in this case!



Yes, second on the custom rolled interfaces. There is a place in
non-semantic interfaces for limiting a screen reader to edit mode, but it's
hard to justify.



In Google docs, the only way to navigate through tables is with the tab key.



Developers try so hard to make sure all these elements are accessible with
the tab key, but frankly it doesn't lead to a good UX. For example, I would
love to be able to press tab on an interface and have it switch tabs
without making me go through all the links on the page. But rather than
focusing on improving the UX of the whole keyboard, developers try and use
a single key to do all navigation.



NVDA just told everyone they collect usage data when they use NVDA, I would
love to see if they have numbers on how much tab is used vs other keys.

Thanks,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

From: David Engebretson Jr
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 12:48PM
Subject: Re: scripts to remove application mode, was...Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Jonathan,

Any chance you could share your scripts that remove application mode?

The SiteImprove Academy uses litmos and they've wrapped a frame in
application mode that makes it very difficult to navigate.

Appreciate your help,
David

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Avila
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:38 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for
Main Navigation Come From?

I agree with the views expressed against application mode -- I've not only
seen web apps force screen reader users into application mode but also then
put labels, groups, and grid cells into the focus order -- forcing the user
to navigate through everything without any option for quick navigation past
these elements. The organizations claim the product is Section 508
conformant. I've actually written JAWS scripts to remove the role
application from the page at run time through the document loaded event to
allow the user to use browse mode/virtual cursor mode.

On a related note the same application would only assign an accessible name
to input fields on focus -- so once in virtual cursor mode when you
navigated to an input or checkbox it had no accessible name until it was
actually focused -- since JAWS doesn't focus elements in the VC mode unless
you tab to them the control appeared as having no accessible name.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office

Visit us online:
Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog

Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged
and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or
entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution
or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

From: Andre Polykanine
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 5:10PM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello Julie and all,
Whenever I asked such questions in mailing lists for screen
reader users, I inadvertently started a "holy war". This is very much
like "what's better, Windows or Linux?" (or Mac?).
I personally navigate Web almost exclusively with arrows and quick nav
keys (my main screen reader is JAWS), but I do know a lot of people
who navigate Web with Tab, like a desktop app. They do miss lots of
things, as someone of you has already said, so I don't know how they
cope with it, but it's true: "tab vs. arrows" is like "iOs vs.
Android" or "windows vs. Linux vs. MacOs".

--
With best regards from Ukraine,
Andre
Skype: menelion_elensule
Twitter (English only): @AndrePolykanine


------------ Original message ------------
From: Julie Romanowski < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Date created: , 4:26:33 PM
Subject: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?


Are you implying that screen reader users don't use the tab key for web navigation? I know a few JAWS user (blind or have limited vision) who do use the tab key (among other key commands) for web navigation.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:21 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

The idea that screen reader users use the Tab key for web navigation is very common among developers. I see this all the time when we are doing screen reader training or pairing with them to fix issues. It's a clear indication that they have never had any professional training on assistive technologies, which is shocking but absolutely normal. However, it's worth noting that the Tab key is used extensively for navigating desktop applications.

To address Reuben's question, the arrow keys navigate within the screen reader's virtual object model, not the DOM. Depending on what type of element has focus in the virtual object model, pressing certain keys such as Enter or Spacebar causes a change in the DOM. This only applies to websites - desktop applications don't have a virtual object model so keystrokes are passed directly to the application.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
Sent: 11 October 2018 12:13
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

Hello Reuben,
There were several presenters showing how a screen reader works using their designs by pressing tab. This was very explicit screen reader only usage, so it must be a prevailing sentiment.
Arrow keys are supposed to read line by line when you press the arrow key.
I say "If you hit select all, and copy and paste that text into a text editor, that is very similar to how I see a webpage".
Thank you,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;


On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:37 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Brandon,
>
> My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really for
> screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to navigate,
> since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.
>
> Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all
> your elements are machine readable than worrying about how a screen
> reader moves between elements.
>
> I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers
> handle translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of elements
> in the browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.
>
> Cheers,
> Reuben.
>
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly use
> > tab
> to
> > navigate comes from?
> >
> >
> >
> > I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows, Linux,
> > and
> IOS
> > for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard
> > more than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow keys
> > and
> browser
> > mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is
> > either impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow
> > keys. If you use tab to navigate, you miss lots of information, such
> > as everything in <p>
> or
> > <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals
> > saying, tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I
> > would say 90% of web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When I
> > teach people how to
> use
> > the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between
> > form fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys
> > because you
> get
> > much more information.
> >
> > Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen
> > reader users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is really
> > the way
> screen
> > reader users navigate?
> >
> > It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only
> > accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2018 6:02PM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

Users I've worked with who learned JAWS before the virtual cursor or perhaps before the expansion of quick navigation keys were introduced tend to stick more to tabbing and the list of links and headings lists – this is understandable because this is all we had. When I started with JAWS 3.2 in 1998 you had to reformat the page into a single column and read down the page with the mouse pointer and you could access a list of links (If my memory is correct). You could also tab through form fields and links which was part of the standard browser behavior.



I'll extend this discussion to the use of the list of links features in screen readers. The WebAIM survey asked a question about how users find information on a page<https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/#finding>. Looking at the WebAIM data indicates that only 6.8% of users surveyed use the list of links feature to find things on a web page. Yet, if you talk to sighted usability folks who watch screen reader users they will say that the list of links features is almost always used and is critical. They will say that beginning users use this feature and that the WebAIM survey more broadly represents advanced expert users.



I'd like to make an assertion that behavior of some users may be related to training (perhaps by well-intended non-disabled folks who have a limited set of knowledge about assistive technology), experience, and limitations of older versions of technology. Some will say that we shouldn't change user behavior – and instead we should cater to user behavior instead. When I look at changes on the iPhone and in modern design and other areas I see people attempting to change user behavior for the better. When Microsoft Office came out with the ribbon every one was upset. And while some of you may still hate the ribbon – organizing contextual items out of the menus and into an area that is on-screen has really worked well for some users. A GUI while not accessible at first has been more accessible in time to users who couldn't grasp the command line interface. Apple took the touch interface of the iPhone to the next level and later made it accessible – all changing user behavior – but for the better. The touch interface which seemed inaccessible to many has been augmented with all sorts of accessibility features.



The list of links feature is useful – sometimes. I use it myself on occasion. Where it really excels is when you know the name of the link and you want to quickly jump to the link or activate the link. Where it is not useful is to understand the structure of the page and find something that you don't know what it's called. Take for instance a typical page with a store locator. If I've never been to the page before I could spend a lot of time reading through the links list looking for that link – or perhaps I can guess that maybe it starts with "s" for store and press "s" to move through all the links that start with "s". However, the name of the link could be "find store" or "locate store" in which case spending time digging through the list of links is actually slower than using other methods on the page such as checking the header or footer using landmarks or searching on the page.



Screen reader vendors also have a responsibility. Even after implementation of ARIA updates to the list of links feature lagged behind with no or limited support for use of ARIA to communicate the link name. That is now fixed – but even today the list of links feature in screen readers do not include the ability to speak the surrounding list item, table cell, sentence or paragraph. This is easily done in other situations like spell check where you can read the word in context with a command like JAWSKey+C.



In conclusion, I think it's important to ask why users do something a certain way. Is it because it's the way they learned many years ago or the way that someone without a disability taught them because that person didn't know the features and capabilities of modern assistive technology? Is the way still useful or effective? In what situations? Is our behavior dictated by limitations in assistive technology innovation? How can we drive better access to unfamiliar content and help users gain a overview of the page? The accessibility of controls and widgets of the page is just one aspect of accessibility. Access holistically to the page – understanding the core workflows and effectively and quickly being able to access the content at the same level of speed as others and becoming familiar with unfamiliar content is critical for inclusion. Some say that trying to change user behavior is like trying to boil the ocean. My feeling is that if there is a better way to do something an that way provides a better and more inclusive experience then we should be teaching others and spreading the word about these better methods of access. I'm not saying get rid of the old ways yet – but we can and should continually improve methods of access. I understand that logistically this is challenging – there is a lack of funding, training, updated assistive technology, inaccessible sites, etc. but those shouldn't prevent us from trying.



Ultimately landmarks, headings, and other structures along with ways to present these structure to the user and allow them to navigate them is key. We have made great progress in these areas – but I know there is much more that can be done – consider an automatic AI summary of the page, automatic movement to the part of the page you want to read, etc.. I'd ask that people consider the basic method of navigation tab, list of links, etc. and while useful and important to consider not assume that these are in fact the best way to navigate simply because most users know about them. Consider inclusive design that conveys a more wholistic view of the page rather than a link out of context and help educate all users.



Jonathan



Jonathan Avila, CPWA



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Andre Polykanine
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 7:10 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?



Hello Julie and all,

Whenever I asked such questions in mailing lists for screen reader users, I inadvertently started a "holy war". This is very much like "what's better, Windows or Linux?" (or Mac?).

I personally navigate Web almost exclusively with arrows and quick nav keys (my main screen reader is JAWS), but I do know a lot of people who navigate Web with Tab, like a desktop app. They do miss lots of things, as someone of you has already said, so I don't know how they cope with it, but it's true: "tab vs. arrows" is like "iOs vs.

Android" or "windows vs. Linux vs. MacOs".



--

With best regards from Ukraine,

Andre

Skype: menelion_elensule

Twitter (English only): @AndrePolykanine





------------ Original message ------------

From: Julie Romanowski < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>

To: WebAIM Discussion List

Date created: , 4:26:33 PM

Subject: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?





Are you implying that screen reader users don't use the tab key for web navigation? I know a few JAWS user (blind or have limited vision) who do use the tab key (among other key commands) for web navigation.



-----Original Message-----

From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Steve Green

Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:21 AM

To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>

Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?



The idea that screen reader users use the Tab key for web navigation is very common among developers. I see this all the time when we are doing screen reader training or pairing with them to fix issues. It's a clear indication that they have never had any professional training on assistive technologies, which is shocking but absolutely normal. However, it's worth noting that the Tab key is used extensively for navigating desktop applications.



To address Reuben's question, the arrow keys navigate within the screen reader's virtual object model, not the DOM. Depending on what type of element has focus in the virtual object model, pressing certain keys such as Enter or Spacebar causes a change in the DOM. This only applies to websites - desktop applications don't have a virtual object model so keystrokes are passed directly to the application.



Steve Green

Managing Director

Test Partners Ltd





-----Original Message-----

From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs

Sent: 11 October 2018 12:13

To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>

Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?



Hello Reuben,

There were several presenters showing how a screen reader works using their designs by pressing tab. This was very explicit screen reader only usage, so it must be a prevailing sentiment.

Arrow keys are supposed to read line by line when you press the arrow key.

I say "If you hit select all, and copy and paste that text into a text editor, that is very similar to how I see a webpage".

Thank you,



Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;





On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:37 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:



> Hi Brandon,

>

> My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really for

> screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to navigate,

> since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.

>

> Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all

> your elements are machine readable than worrying about how a screen

> reader moves between elements.

>

> I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers

> handle translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of elements

> in the browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.

>

> Cheers,

> Reuben.

>

> On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <

> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:

>

> > Hello,

> >

> > Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly use

> > tab

> to

> > navigate comes from?

> >

> >

> >

> > I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows, Linux,

> > and

> IOS

> > for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard

> > more than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow keys

> > and

> browser

> > mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is

> > either impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow

> > keys. If you use tab to navigate, you miss lots of information, such

> > as everything in <p>

> or

> > <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals

> > saying, tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I

> > would say 90% of web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When I

> > teach people how to

> use

> > the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between

> > form fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys

> > because you

> get

> > much more information.

> >

> > Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen

> > reader users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is really

> > the way

> screen

> > reader users navigate?

> >

> > It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only

> > accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> >

> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

> >
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives

> > > >

>
> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives

> >

From: Julie Romanowski
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2018 4:32AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

Well said, Jonathon. Thank you.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 7:02 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

Users I've worked with who learned JAWS before the virtual cursor or perhaps before the expansion of quick navigation keys were introduced tend to stick more to tabbing and the list of links and headings lists – this is understandable because this is all we had. When I started with JAWS 3.2 in 1998 you had to reformat the page into a single column and read down the page with the mouse pointer and you could access a list of links (If my memory is correct). You could also tab through form fields and links which was part of the standard browser behavior.



I'll extend this discussion to the use of the list of links features in screen readers. The WebAIM survey asked a question about how users find information on a page<https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/#finding>. Looking at the WebAIM data indicates that only 6.8% of users surveyed use the list of links feature to find things on a web page. Yet, if you talk to sighted usability folks who watch screen reader users they will say that the list of links features is almost always used and is critical. They will say that beginning users use this feature and that the WebAIM survey more broadly represents advanced expert users.



I'd like to make an assertion that behavior of some users may be related to training (perhaps by well-intended non-disabled folks who have a limited set of knowledge about assistive technology), experience, and limitations of older versions of technology. Some will say that we shouldn't change user behavior – and instead we should cater to user behavior instead. When I look at changes on the iPhone and in modern design and other areas I see people attempting to change user behavior for the better. When Microsoft Office came out with the ribbon every one was upset. And while some of you may still hate the ribbon – organizing contextual items out of the menus and into an area that is on-screen has really worked well for some users. A GUI while not accessible at first has been more accessible in time to users who couldn't grasp the command line interface. Apple took the touch interface of the iPhone to the next level and later made it accessible – all changing user behavior – but for the better. The touch interface which seemed inaccessible to many has been augmented with all sorts of accessibility features.



The list of links feature is useful – sometimes. I use it myself on occasion. Where it really excels is when you know the name of the link and you want to quickly jump to the link or activate the link. Where it is not useful is to understand the structure of the page and find something that you don't know what it's called. Take for instance a typical page with a store locator. If I've never been to the page before I could spend a lot of time reading through the links list looking for that link – or perhaps I can guess that maybe it starts with "s" for store and press "s" to move through all the links that start with "s". However, the name of the link could be "find store" or "locate store" in which case spending time digging through the list of links is actually slower than using other methods on the page such as checking the header or footer using landmarks or searching on the page.



Screen reader vendors also have a responsibility. Even after implementation of ARIA updates to the list of links feature lagged behind with no or limited support for use of ARIA to communicate the link name. That is now fixed – but even today the list of links feature in screen readers do not include the ability to speak the surrounding list item, table cell, sentence or paragraph. This is easily done in other situations like spell check where you can read the word in context with a command like JAWSKey+C.



In conclusion, I think it's important to ask why users do something a certain way. Is it because it's the way they learned many years ago or the way that someone without a disability taught them because that person didn't know the features and capabilities of modern assistive technology? Is the way still useful or effective? In what situations? Is our behavior dictated by limitations in assistive technology innovation? How can we drive better access to unfamiliar content and help users gain a overview of the page? The accessibility of controls and widgets of the page is just one aspect of accessibility. Access holistically to the page – understanding the core workflows and effectively and quickly being able to access the content at the same level of speed as others and becoming familiar with unfamiliar content is critical for inclusion. Some say that trying to change user behavior is like trying to boil the ocean. My feeling is that if there is a better way to do something an that way provides a better and more inclusive experience then we should be teaching others and spreading the word about these better methods of access. I'm not saying get rid of the old ways yet – but we can and should continually improve methods of access. I understand that logistically this is challenging – there is a lack of funding, training, updated assistive technology, inaccessible sites, etc. but those shouldn't prevent us from trying.



Ultimately landmarks, headings, and other structures along with ways to present these structure to the user and allow them to navigate them is key. We have made great progress in these areas – but I know there is much more that can be done – consider an automatic AI summary of the page, automatic movement to the part of the page you want to read, etc.. I'd ask that people consider the basic method of navigation tab, list of links, etc. and while useful and important to consider not assume that these are in fact the best way to navigate simply because most users know about them. Consider inclusive design that conveys a more wholistic view of the page rather than a link out of context and help educate all users.



Jonathan



Jonathan Avila, CPWA



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Andre Polykanine
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 7:10 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?



Hello Julie and all,

Whenever I asked such questions in mailing lists for screen reader users, I inadvertently started a "holy war". This is very much like "what's better, Windows or Linux?" (or Mac?).

I personally navigate Web almost exclusively with arrows and quick nav keys (my main screen reader is JAWS), but I do know a lot of people who navigate Web with Tab, like a desktop app. They do miss lots of things, as someone of you has already said, so I don't know how they cope with it, but it's true: "tab vs. arrows" is like "iOs vs.

Android" or "windows vs. Linux vs. MacOs".



--

With best regards from Ukraine,

Andre

Skype: menelion_elensule

Twitter (English only): @AndrePolykanine





------------ Original message ------------

From: Julie Romanowski < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>

To: WebAIM Discussion List

Date created: , 4:26:33 PM

Subject: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?





Are you implying that screen reader users don't use the tab key for web navigation? I know a few JAWS user (blind or have limited vision) who do use the tab key (among other key commands) for web navigation.



-----Original Message-----

From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Steve Green

Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:21 AM

To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>

Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?



The idea that screen reader users use the Tab key for web navigation is very common among developers. I see this all the time when we are doing screen reader training or pairing with them to fix issues. It's a clear indication that they have never had any professional training on assistive technologies, which is shocking but absolutely normal. However, it's worth noting that the Tab key is used extensively for navigating desktop applications.



To address Reuben's question, the arrow keys navigate within the screen reader's virtual object model, not the DOM. Depending on what type of element has focus in the virtual object model, pressing certain keys such as Enter or Spacebar causes a change in the DOM. This only applies to websites - desktop applications don't have a virtual object model so keystrokes are passed directly to the application.



Steve Green

Managing Director

Test Partners Ltd





-----Original Message-----

From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs

Sent: 11 October 2018 12:13

To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>

Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?



Hello Reuben,

There were several presenters showing how a screen reader works using their designs by pressing tab. This was very explicit screen reader only usage, so it must be a prevailing sentiment.

Arrow keys are supposed to read line by line when you press the arrow key.

I say "If you hit select all, and copy and paste that text into a text editor, that is very similar to how I see a webpage".

Thank you,



Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;





On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:37 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:



> Hi Brandon,

>

> My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really for

> screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to navigate,

> since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.

>

> Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all

> your elements are machine readable than worrying about how a screen

> reader moves between elements.

>

> I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers

> handle translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of elements

> in the browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.

>

> Cheers,

> Reuben.

>

> On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <

> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:

>

> > Hello,

> >

> > Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly use

> > tab

> to

> > navigate comes from?

> >

> >

> >

> > I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows, Linux,

> > and

> IOS

> > for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard

> > more than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow keys

> > and

> browser

> > mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is

> > either impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow

> > keys. If you use tab to navigate, you miss lots of information, such

> > as everything in <p>

> or

> > <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals

> > saying, tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I

> > would say 90% of web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When I

> > teach people how to

> use

> > the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between

> > form fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys

> > because you

> get

> > much more information.

> >

> > Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen

> > reader users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is really

> > the way

> screen

> > reader users navigate?

> >

> > It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only

> > accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> >

> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

> >
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives

> > > >

>
> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives

> >

From: JP Jamous
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2018 7:01AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

Nicely said Jonothan. Totally agree with what you stated all throughout the e-mail.

I found it interesting that you and I started using JAWS with V3.2. I had a 233MHZ processor with 128MB of RAM and that HP cost me $1200. I was a high school student and made that investment with my first credit card. I had to have a machine for the State rehab to buy me JAWS and other assistive technologies.

Wow, what a difference between back then and now.

I recall using the PCCursor back then on web pages and I hated it when they started using the virtual cursor instead. It took time to get used to it.

--------------------
JP Jamous
Senior Digital Accessibility Engineer
E-Mail Me |Join My LinkedIn Network
--------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 7:02 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

Users I've worked with who learned JAWS before the virtual cursor or perhaps before the expansion of quick navigation keys were introduced tend to stick more to tabbing and the list of links and headings lists – this is understandable because this is all we had. When I started with JAWS 3.2 in 1998 you had to reformat the page into a single column and read down the page with the mouse pointer and you could access a list of links (If my memory is correct). You could also tab through form fields and links which was part of the standard browser behavior.



I'll extend this discussion to the use of the list of links features in screen readers. The WebAIM survey asked a question about how users find information on a page<https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/#finding>. Looking at the WebAIM data indicates that only 6.8% of users surveyed use the list of links feature to find things on a web page. Yet, if you talk to sighted usability folks who watch screen reader users they will say that the list of links features is almost always used and is critical. They will say that beginning users use this feature and that the WebAIM survey more broadly represents advanced expert users.



I'd like to make an assertion that behavior of some users may be related to training (perhaps by well-intended non-disabled folks who have a limited set of knowledge about assistive technology), experience, and limitations of older versions of technology. Some will say that we shouldn't change user behavior – and instead we should cater to user behavior instead. When I look at changes on the iPhone and in modern design and other areas I see people attempting to change user behavior for the better. When Microsoft Office came out with the ribbon every one was upset. And while some of you may still hate the ribbon – organizing contextual items out of the menus and into an area that is on-screen has really worked well for some users. A GUI while not accessible at first has been more accessible in time to users who couldn't grasp the command line interface. Apple took the touch interface of the iPhone to the next level and later made it accessible – all changing user behavior – but for the better. The touch interface which seemed inaccessible to many has been augmented with all sorts of accessibility features.



The list of links feature is useful – sometimes. I use it myself on occasion. Where it really excels is when you know the name of the link and you want to quickly jump to the link or activate the link. Where it is not useful is to understand the structure of the page and find something that you don't know what it's called. Take for instance a typical page with a store locator. If I've never been to the page before I could spend a lot of time reading through the links list looking for that link – or perhaps I can guess that maybe it starts with "s" for store and press "s" to move through all the links that start with "s". However, the name of the link could be "find store" or "locate store" in which case spending time digging through the list of links is actually slower than using other methods on the page such as checking the header or footer using landmarks or searching on the page.



Screen reader vendors also have a responsibility. Even after implementation of ARIA updates to the list of links feature lagged behind with no or limited support for use of ARIA to communicate the link name. That is now fixed – but even today the list of links feature in screen readers do not include the ability to speak the surrounding list item, table cell, sentence or paragraph. This is easily done in other situations like spell check where you can read the word in context with a command like JAWSKey+C.



In conclusion, I think it's important to ask why users do something a certain way. Is it because it's the way they learned many years ago or the way that someone without a disability taught them because that person didn't know the features and capabilities of modern assistive technology? Is the way still useful or effective? In what situations? Is our behavior dictated by limitations in assistive technology innovation? How can we drive better access to unfamiliar content and help users gain a overview of the page? The accessibility of controls and widgets of the page is just one aspect of accessibility. Access holistically to the page – understanding the core workflows and effectively and quickly being able to access the content at the same level of speed as others and becoming familiar with unfamiliar content is critical for inclusion. Some say that trying to change user behavior is like trying to boil the ocean. My feeling is that if there is a better way to do something an that way provides a better and more inclusive experience then we should be teaching others and spreading the word about these better methods of access. I'm not saying get rid of the old ways yet – but we can and should continually improve methods of access. I understand that logistically this is challenging – there is a lack of funding, training, updated assistive technology, inaccessible sites, etc. but those shouldn't prevent us from trying.



Ultimately landmarks, headings, and other structures along with ways to present these structure to the user and allow them to navigate them is key. We have made great progress in these areas – but I know there is much more that can be done – consider an automatic AI summary of the page, automatic movement to the part of the page you want to read, etc.. I'd ask that people consider the basic method of navigation tab, list of links, etc. and while useful and important to consider not assume that these are in fact the best way to navigate simply because most users know about them. Consider inclusive design that conveys a more wholistic view of the page rather than a link out of context and help educate all users.



Jonathan



Jonathan Avila, CPWA



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Andre Polykanine
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 7:10 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?



Hello Julie and all,

Whenever I asked such questions in mailing lists for screen reader users, I inadvertently started a "holy war". This is very much like "what's better, Windows or Linux?" (or Mac?).

I personally navigate Web almost exclusively with arrows and quick nav keys (my main screen reader is JAWS), but I do know a lot of people who navigate Web with Tab, like a desktop app. They do miss lots of things, as someone of you has already said, so I don't know how they cope with it, but it's true: "tab vs. arrows" is like "iOs vs.

Android" or "windows vs. Linux vs. MacOs".



--

With best regards from Ukraine,

Andre

Skype: menelion_elensule

Twitter (English only): @AndrePolykanine





------------ Original message ------------

From: Julie Romanowski < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>

To: WebAIM Discussion List

Date created: , 4:26:33 PM

Subject: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?





Are you implying that screen reader users don't use the tab key for web navigation? I know a few JAWS user (blind or have limited vision) who do use the tab key (among other key commands) for web navigation.



-----Original Message-----

From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Steve Green

Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:21 AM

To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>

Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?



The idea that screen reader users use the Tab key for web navigation is very common among developers. I see this all the time when we are doing screen reader training or pairing with them to fix issues. It's a clear indication that they have never had any professional training on assistive technologies, which is shocking but absolutely normal. However, it's worth noting that the Tab key is used extensively for navigating desktop applications.



To address Reuben's question, the arrow keys navigate within the screen reader's virtual object model, not the DOM. Depending on what type of element has focus in the virtual object model, pressing certain keys such as Enter or Spacebar causes a change in the DOM. This only applies to websites - desktop applications don't have a virtual object model so keystrokes are passed directly to the application.



Steve Green

Managing Director

Test Partners Ltd





-----Original Message-----

From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs

Sent: 11 October 2018 12:13

To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>

Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?



Hello Reuben,

There were several presenters showing how a screen reader works using their designs by pressing tab. This was very explicit screen reader only usage, so it must be a prevailing sentiment.

Arrow keys are supposed to read line by line when you press the arrow key.

I say "If you hit select all, and copy and paste that text into a text editor, that is very similar to how I see a webpage".

Thank you,



Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;





On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:37 AM Reuben Turk < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:



> Hi Brandon,

>

> My impression was that programming for tab navigation isn't really for

> screen reader users but for users who use only a keyboard to navigate,

> since browsers support keyboard navigation via tabs.

>

> Programming for screen readers to me is more about making sure all

> your elements are machine readable than worrying about how a screen

> reader moves between elements.

>

> I could be wrong though. I'm not actually sure how screen readers

> handle translating your arrow keystrokes into navigation of elements

> in the browser, although I'm interested to do some investigations now.

>

> Cheers,

> Reuben.

>

> On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 21:19, Brandon Keith Biggs <

> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:

>

> > Hello,

> >

> > Does anyone know where the idea that screen reader users mostly use

> > tab

> to

> > navigate comes from?

> >

> >

> >

> > I've been using and teaching screen reader usage on Windows, Linux,

> > and

> IOS

> > for over 15 years and I would say I press most keys on my keyboard

> > more than I press my tab key. My navigation keys are the arrow keys

> > and

> browser

> > mode navigation keys. Tab is used in select situations when it is

> > either impossible or time-consuming to navigate using the arrow

> > keys. If you use tab to navigate, you miss lots of information, such

> > as everything in <p>

> or

> > <h*> elements. Contrary to what I see accessibility professionals

> > saying, tab is not how I move through a page at all. In fact, I

> > would say 90% of web pages I visit I never press the tab key. When I

> > teach people how to

> use

> > the screen reader, I tell them only to use tab to navigate between

> > form fields because it is faster. Otherwise, use the arrow keys

> > because you

> get

> > much more information.

> >

> > Does anyone know why tab is considered to be the main way screen

> > reader users navigate? Are there studies showing that tab is really

> > the way

> screen

> > reader users navigate?

> >

> > It's harmful when developers make an experience that is only

> > accessible using tab and I miss it because I'm using the arrow keys.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> >

> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives

> > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

> >

> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives

> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

>

From: Jared Smith
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2018 9:58AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

It's nice to get additional insight into how various screen reader
users interact with page content.

I teach developers and others how to do basic accessibility testing
with screen readers. There are several distinct advantages of having
them navigate using the Tab key as ONE important component of screen
reader testing:

1. It's very easy to do and works the same across all screen readers.

2. It helps them ensure that all interactive controls are navigable
via the keyboard. This extends well beyond screen reader users to
other keyboard users.

3. It allows them to easily check the navigation order of elements in
the page. Because navigation elements are typically scattered
throughout a page, this also can give a good indication of the reading
order of the page.

4. It allows them to check link texts, button values, form labels,
etc. in isolation - without the possible confusion that can arise from
other navigation or reading techniques.

Of course it's important that they understand that there's more to
screen reader accessibility than hitting Tab. And they must also
understand that anything that can be tabbed to must also be
functional, which inherently means that non-interactive elements will
not and should not be tabable. These things can be tested via other
mechanisms - listening to the entire page, down arrow through the
page, navigating by headings, exploring regions/landmarks, etc.

Even though tabbing may not be the preferred method for many screen
reader users, it is a very useful check that any developer can do.

Jared

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2018 10:09AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,
That makes sense. Why in the world do non screenreader users not get up and
down arrow keys for moving line by line? That seems very difficult to
handle.
If I used tab on this email in Gmail, for example, I would hear an expanded
menu that says "Show details sub menu" and tab again would show:
http://list.webaim.org/

So I missed the entire message!
This is why tab is not the most useful key command in our navigational key
toolbox.
Thanks,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 8:58 AM Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> It's nice to get additional insight into how various screen reader
> users interact with page content.
>
> I teach developers and others how to do basic accessibility testing
> with screen readers. There are several distinct advantages of having
> them navigate using the Tab key as ONE important component of screen
> reader testing:
>
> 1. It's very easy to do and works the same across all screen readers.
>
> 2. It helps them ensure that all interactive controls are navigable
> via the keyboard. This extends well beyond screen reader users to
> other keyboard users.
>
> 3. It allows them to easily check the navigation order of elements in
> the page. Because navigation elements are typically scattered
> throughout a page, this also can give a good indication of the reading
> order of the page.
>
> 4. It allows them to check link texts, button values, form labels,
> etc. in isolation - without the possible confusion that can arise from
> other navigation or reading techniques.
>
> Of course it's important that they understand that there's more to
> screen reader accessibility than hitting Tab. And they must also
> understand that anything that can be tabbed to must also be
> functional, which inherently means that non-interactive elements will
> not and should not be tabable. These things can be tested via other
> mechanisms - listening to the entire page, down arrow through the
> page, navigating by headings, exploring regions/landmarks, etc.
>
> Even though tabbing may not be the preferred method for many screen
> reader users, it is a very useful check that any developer can do.
>
> Jared
> > > > >

From: Jared Smith
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2018 10:25AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

> If I used tab on this email in Gmail, for example, I would hear an expanded
> menu that says "Show details sub menu" and tab again would show:
> http://list.webaim.org/

Precisely. Those are both interactive elements. This is expected
behavior and exactly what you should hear when hitting Tab.

> So I missed the entire message!

Yep, the message is not interactive or functional, so you wouldn't
expect hitting Tab to cause it to be read.

> This is why tab is not the most useful key command in our navigational key
> toolbox.

Well, it's not useful if you expect it to take you to non-interactive
content (like the text of an e-mail message), but it's a wonderful
mechanism for navigating through interactive elements. So long as
testers and users understand what Tab does and doesn't do, there's no
reason not to utilize it for exploring interactive elements. If they
instead want to explore everything (including interactive elements),
then up/down arrow keys is the right tool for doing that.

Jared

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2018 11:14AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

One of the by-products of teaching Tab/Shift + Tab as a testing tool is the
misconception that I'm coming across that all we do is "Tab through
content." Somehow those we are training missed the part about links and form
controls and transfer that knowledge to us tabbing character by character,
word by word, line by line and paragraph by paragraph.

I've started including information in workshops and webinars clearly stating
that we have navigation and reading commands, that we don't "Tab through
content" to read digital content and that the Tab/Shift + Tab is for links
and form controls only. In fact, my online courses have a topic devoted to
explaining that we don't use Tab/Shift + Tab to "read" digital content.

Based on this discussion thread, we need to do a better job on explaining
that those of us using screen readers, Text-to-Speech or other adaptive
technology don't "Tab through content" and that there are other keyboard
commands and tools for reading and navigating digital content.

I'd been wondering where this misconception came from.

I don't use the Tab/Shift + Tab scenario, either as a screen reader user or
as a teacher/trainer so apparently missed the general method of testing some
content. I appreciate this discussion as it gives me an insight into how the
misconception gained popularity. I'm one of those people who use the list of
form controls, list of links, list of graphics and so forth to quickly find
thins and orient myself to digital content. One of the reasons I don't use
Tab/Shift + Tab is the endless stream of "more" links, or "Click here" links
that I find which end up confusing me and causing me to wonder if I've
actually moved focus. If I get a list of links and there are a lot of those
types of links, I use Page Down to try to find the end of them. I can also
use this list of links to demonstrate how the links are seen in isolation of
the digital content - where does more take you and why would I want more?

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Jared
Smith
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 12:25 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for
Main Navigation Come From?

> If I used tab on this email in Gmail, for example, I would hear an
> expanded menu that says "Show details sub menu" and tab again would show:
> http://list.webaim.org/

Precisely. Those are both interactive elements. This is expected behavior
and exactly what you should hear when hitting Tab.

> So I missed the entire message!

Yep, the message is not interactive or functional, so you wouldn't expect
hitting Tab to cause it to be read.

> This is why tab is not the most useful key command in our navigational
> key toolbox.

Well, it's not useful if you expect it to take you to non-interactive
content (like the text of an e-mail message), but it's a wonderful mechanism
for navigating through interactive elements. So long as testers and users
understand what Tab does and doesn't do, there's no reason not to utilize it
for exploring interactive elements. If they instead want to explore
everything (including interactive elements), then up/down arrow keys is the
right tool for doing that.

Jared
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives

From: Steve Green
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2018 11:23AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

I don't think this misconception arose from incorrect teaching by anyone. It came from people's failure to even attempt to learn, despite the existence of plenty of free and paid-for sources of information and training.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Karlen Communications
Sent: 12 October 2018 18:14
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

One of the by-products of teaching Tab/Shift + Tab as a testing tool is the misconception that I'm coming across that all we do is "Tab through content." Somehow those we are training missed the part about links and form controls and transfer that knowledge to us tabbing character by character, word by word, line by line and paragraph by paragraph.

I've started including information in workshops and webinars clearly stating that we have navigation and reading commands, that we don't "Tab through content" to read digital content and that the Tab/Shift + Tab is for links and form controls only. In fact, my online courses have a topic devoted to explaining that we don't use Tab/Shift + Tab to "read" digital content.

Based on this discussion thread, we need to do a better job on explaining that those of us using screen readers, Text-to-Speech or other adaptive technology don't "Tab through content" and that there are other keyboard commands and tools for reading and navigating digital content.

I'd been wondering where this misconception came from.

I don't use the Tab/Shift + Tab scenario, either as a screen reader user or as a teacher/trainer so apparently missed the general method of testing some content. I appreciate this discussion as it gives me an insight into how the misconception gained popularity. I'm one of those people who use the list of form controls, list of links, list of graphics and so forth to quickly find thins and orient myself to digital content. One of the reasons I don't use Tab/Shift + Tab is the endless stream of "more" links, or "Click here" links that I find which end up confusing me and causing me to wonder if I've actually moved focus. If I get a list of links and there are a lot of those types of links, I use Page Down to try to find the end of them. I can also use this list of links to demonstrate how the links are seen in isolation of the digital content - where does more take you and why would I want more?

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Jared Smith
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 12:25 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

> If I used tab on this email in Gmail, for example, I would hear an
> expanded menu that says "Show details sub menu" and tab again would show:
> http://list.webaim.org/

Precisely. Those are both interactive elements. This is expected behavior and exactly what you should hear when hitting Tab.

> So I missed the entire message!

Yep, the message is not interactive or functional, so you wouldn't expect hitting Tab to cause it to be read.

> This is why tab is not the most useful key command in our navigational
> key toolbox.

Well, it's not useful if you expect it to take you to non-interactive content (like the text of an e-mail message), but it's a wonderful mechanism for navigating through interactive elements. So long as testers and users understand what Tab does and doesn't do, there's no reason not to utilize it for exploring interactive elements. If they instead want to explore everything (including interactive elements), then up/down arrow keys is the right tool for doing that.

Jared

From: Emily Ogle
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2018 11:35AM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | Next message →

Certainly I encountered a lot of confusion when training people on the screen reader and said "we should test with and without tabbing." Blank looks. How else do screen readers get by then? That misconception about how screen readers user interact with content also leads to developers panicking that non-interactive content is being missed and adding *everything* to the tab order.

With software, though, where content is not opened within a browser, it becomes much harder to provide multiple ways of navigating.

> On Oct 12, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> I don't think this misconception arose from incorrect teaching by anyone. It came from people's failure to even attempt to learn, despite the existence of plenty of free and paid-for sources of information and training.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Karlen Communications
> Sent: 12 October 2018 18:14
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
>
> One of the by-products of teaching Tab/Shift + Tab as a testing tool is the misconception that I'm coming across that all we do is "Tab through content." Somehow those we are training missed the part about links and form controls and transfer that knowledge to us tabbing character by character, word by word, line by line and paragraph by paragraph.
>
> I've started including information in workshops and webinars clearly stating that we have navigation and reading commands, that we don't "Tab through content" to read digital content and that the Tab/Shift + Tab is for links and form controls only. In fact, my online courses have a topic devoted to explaining that we don't use Tab/Shift + Tab to "read" digital content.
>
> Based on this discussion thread, we need to do a better job on explaining that those of us using screen readers, Text-to-Speech or other adaptive technology don't "Tab through content" and that there are other keyboard commands and tools for reading and navigating digital content.
>
> I'd been wondering where this misconception came from.
>
> I don't use the Tab/Shift + Tab scenario, either as a screen reader user or as a teacher/trainer so apparently missed the general method of testing some content. I appreciate this discussion as it gives me an insight into how the misconception gained popularity. I'm one of those people who use the list of form controls, list of links, list of graphics and so forth to quickly find thins and orient myself to digital content. One of the reasons I don't use Tab/Shift + Tab is the endless stream of "more" links, or "Click here" links that I find which end up confusing me and causing me to wonder if I've actually moved focus. If I get a list of links and there are a lot of those types of links, I use Page Down to try to find the end of them. I can also use this list of links to demonstrate how the links are seen in isolation of the digital content - where does more take you and why would I want more?
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Jared Smith
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 12:25 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
>
>> If I used tab on this email in Gmail, for example, I would hear an
>> expanded menu that says "Show details sub menu" and tab again would show:
>> http://list.webaim.org/
>
> Precisely. Those are both interactive elements. This is expected behavior and exactly what you should hear when hitting Tab.
>
>> So I missed the entire message!
>
> Yep, the message is not interactive or functional, so you wouldn't expect hitting Tab to cause it to be read.
>
>> This is why tab is not the most useful key command in our navigational
>> key toolbox.
>
> Well, it's not useful if you expect it to take you to non-interactive content (like the text of an e-mail message), but it's a wonderful mechanism for navigating through interactive elements. So long as testers and users understand what Tab does and doesn't do, there's no reason not to utilize it for exploring interactive elements. If they instead want to explore everything (including interactive elements), then up/down arrow keys is the right tool for doing that.
>
> Jared
> > > >
> > > > > > >

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2018 12:08PM
Subject: Re: Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
← Previous message | No next message

> With software, though, where content is not opened within a browser, it becomes much harder to provide multiple ways of navigating.

I'm hoping that soon by use of the touch cursor in JAWS and object navigation in NVDA we can move Widnows screen readers to the model that is used on the Mac, IOS, and Android for native content to allow users to move by object type and navigate all content without having to be restricted to tabbing. Without modern apps and accessiblity APIs this is closer to being a reality.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila, CPWA
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office

Visit us online:
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-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Emily Ogle via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 1:35 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: Emily Ogle < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?

Certainly I encountered a lot of confusion when training people on the screen reader and said "we should test with and without tabbing." Blank looks. How else do screen readers get by then? That misconception about how screen readers user interact with content also leads to developers panicking that non-interactive content is being missed and adding *everything* to the tab order.

With software, though, where content is not opened within a browser, it becomes much harder to provide multiple ways of navigating.

> On Oct 12, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> I don't think this misconception arose from incorrect teaching by anyone. It came from people's failure to even attempt to learn, despite the existence of plenty of free and paid-for sources of information and training.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Karlen Communications
> Sent: 12 October 2018 18:14
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
>
> One of the by-products of teaching Tab/Shift + Tab as a testing tool is the misconception that I'm coming across that all we do is "Tab through content." Somehow those we are training missed the part about links and form controls and transfer that knowledge to us tabbing character by character, word by word, line by line and paragraph by paragraph.
>
> I've started including information in workshops and webinars clearly stating that we have navigation and reading commands, that we don't "Tab through content" to read digital content and that the Tab/Shift + Tab is for links and form controls only. In fact, my online courses have a topic devoted to explaining that we don't use Tab/Shift + Tab to "read" digital content.
>
> Based on this discussion thread, we need to do a better job on explaining that those of us using screen readers, Text-to-Speech or other adaptive technology don't "Tab through content" and that there are other keyboard commands and tools for reading and navigating digital content.
>
> I'd been wondering where this misconception came from.
>
> I don't use the Tab/Shift + Tab scenario, either as a screen reader user or as a teacher/trainer so apparently missed the general method of testing some content. I appreciate this discussion as it gives me an insight into how the misconception gained popularity. I'm one of those people who use the list of form controls, list of links, list of graphics and so forth to quickly find thins and orient myself to digital content. One of the reasons I don't use Tab/Shift + Tab is the endless stream of "more" links, or "Click here" links that I find which end up confusing me and causing me to wonder if I've actually moved focus. If I get a list of links and there are a lot of those types of links, I use Page Down to try to find the end of them. I can also use this list of links to demonstrate how the links are seen in isolation of the digital content - where does more take you and why would I want more?
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Jared Smith
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 12:25 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Where Does The Idea Screen Reader Users Use Tab for Main Navigation Come From?
>
>> If I used tab on this email in Gmail, for example, I would hear an
>> expanded menu that says "Show details sub menu" and tab again would show:
>> http://list.webaim.org/
>
> Precisely. Those are both interactive elements. This is expected behavior and exactly what you should hear when hitting Tab.
>
>> So I missed the entire message!
>
> Yep, the message is not interactive or functional, so you wouldn't expect hitting Tab to cause it to be read.
>
>> This is why tab is not the most useful key command in our
>> navigational key toolbox.
>
> Well, it's not useful if you expect it to take you to non-interactive content (like the text of an e-mail message), but it's a wonderful mechanism for navigating through interactive elements. So long as testers and users understand what Tab does and doesn't do, there's no reason not to utilize it for exploring interactive elements. If they instead want to explore everything (including interactive elements), then up/down arrow keys is the right tool for doing that.
>
> Jared
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>