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Thread: Oh, great! this is just what we need...
Number of posts in this thread: 11 (In chronological order)
From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Fri, Oct 11 2002 4:59AM
Subject: Oh, great! this is just what we need...
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Run, don't walk, away screaming:
http://www.bizreport.com/article.php?art_id=3783
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From: Holly Marie
Date: Fri, Oct 11 2002 8:22AM
Subject: Re: Oh, great! this is just what we need...
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From: "John Foliot - bytown internet"
| Run, don't walk, away screaming:
| http://www.bizreport.com/article.php?art_id=3783
My reply posted only to the webaim forum.
I have already seen a few of these invasive ads, and I am sure many
others have also.
This is a nuissance and also makes content inaccessible to anyone
surfing a web page. I imagine it is even worse for those with any kinds
of challenge.
I am particularly annoyed by the Flash type ads that plaster themselves
after arriving from the back or sides right in the middle of content or
over the navigational areas. Some of these have no closing [x] in the
corners, others if you click anywhere on the ad, others pop up or the
click takes you somewhere else. Some are timed to disappear or do so if
you scroll the pages.
IF Yahoo is to become more agressive with its advertising elements in
our faces or way, the only reprecussion or positive light I see here is
that more and more users will turn away from using Yahoo! The once
leading search utility on the WWW will be burying itself deeper and
deeper into losing more users.
Somewhere these people need to focus on the ideas that Push type ads and
invasions only turn off users and get in the way. Maybe loss of visitors
or respect will aid that message delivery.
Even the ads over at weather.com can get irritating. Cool can happen
once but it gets tedious each time. About.com is another web site that
had some great order and information to deliver, but I am really annoyed
with the overuse of popups and windows opened for each page that is
viewed. Even Mozilla with the pop up features off does not avoid all on
their site. Sometimes the about.com pages won't load at all.
I did not read the entire article. But thanks for that piece. Maybe they
should make ads an optional request. [there's a good fantasy]
And maybe they will all destroy themselves in the process?
I made my choices years ago, not to revisit sites that were annoyingly
distruptive to content delivery.
[I love working with multimedia, and think that it is a viable
alternative for many, but abuse of it and how it is used is another
topic]
done with my rant, for now. And I had read about Yahoo! going in this
direction a few months ago. Too Bad.
There should be a budding market for those that promote services and
utilities out there and claim very little advertising and disruption.
holly
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From: Timothy J. Luoma
Date: Fri, Oct 11 2002 9:13AM
Subject: Re: Oh, great! this is just what we need...
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I am continually amazed by what people allow their browsers to do to them.
In Opera > F12 >
[ ] Enable plugins (turns off Flash)
[ ] Enable animated GIFs
[ ] Refuse popup windows
and if you really want to get crazy
[ ] disable javascript
[X] show cached images only
This lets me use the web as I want to, without being subjected to all
that crap.
Why anyone who knows anything about being online ever sees a popup
window is beyond my comprehension.
TjL
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From: Joel Ward
Date: Fri, Oct 11 2002 9:38AM
Subject: Re: Oh, great! this is just what we need...
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> Why anyone who knows anything about being online ever sees a popup
> window is beyond my comprehension.
A few possible reasons:
1) User cannot install programs or upgrade browser because:
1a) Is not administrator of system, therefore cannot install programs (e.g.
corporate system, school system, etc.)
1b) Is not a software expert, and has no idea how to install software
properly (e.g. my mother)
1c) Does not know upgrades/different browsers/other technology exists (e.g.
again, my mother)
2) User does not want to switch browsers because:
2a) Likes features of current browser
2b) Does not want to pay for browser
2c) Does not want to learn new browser
2d) Is lazy/busy/otherwise occupied
Et cetera, et cetera.
Yes, I agree that everyone who uses the internet should learn the basic
"rules" of the medium, but not everyone wants to, or can, be an expert like
many of us. We have to fight to make the web usable for those novice users.
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From: Holly Marie
Date: Fri, Oct 11 2002 9:42AM
Subject: Re: Oh, great! this is just what we need...
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From: "Timothy J. Luoma"
| I am continually amazed by what people allow their browsers to do to
them.
|
| In Opera > F12 >
| [ ] Enable plugins (turns off Flash)
| [ ] Enable animated GIFs
| [ ] Refuse popup windows
|
| and if you really want to get crazy
|
| [ ] disable javascript
| [X] show cached images only
|
| This lets me use the web as I want to, without being subjected to all
| that crap.
|
| Why anyone who knows anything about being online ever sees a popup
| window is beyond my comprehension.
It's not beyond my comprehension.
The name is the same the game changes along the way.
Advertising methods get invasive.
And some Advertisers and web sites are now embracing and enabling this
kind of abuse and misuse of digital technology to destroy the very
medium, and it is getting crazy.
Why should I turn off my javascript? There are many good and important
uses for this feature.
Ditto on images, diagrams, charts. Maps?
Pop Up windows - believe it or not, there are also very good reasons to
have these available, too.
Now, what are these advertisers really doing? They are encouraging users
to actually turn off all these options and it takes away another level
of usability or features on web sites that employ these in better ways.
Of recent note, and I cannot recall where... MS plans to put some
advertising blurb on its Win OS crash screen. I suppose it figures that
users are staring at a blue screen of nothingness, it may as well fill
it with some more useful advertising, while the user waits.
Here it is:
Wednesday, September 4 12:32 AM EDT
Microsoft Announces Ads for BSOD
http://www.bbspot.com/News/2002/10/bsod_ads.html.
Now I like to use or visit sites that have media, imges, javascripting,
etc... I should not have to turn all these items off to visit sites on
the web or use forms, or get more information in different ways. I think
the best thing is to leave sites quickly and never return, if they abuse
their use, and maybe pop off an email or publish a piece about it for
others to see.
holly
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From: Holly Marie
Date: Fri, Oct 11 2002 9:51AM
Subject: Re: Oh, great! this is just what we need...
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From: "Joel Ward" ...
| > Why anyone who knows anything about being online ever sees a popup
| > window is beyond my comprehension.
|
| A few possible reasons:
All very good and credible reasons.
Add to that...
Some users are locked into using particular browsers because the
software or device they use only works with one. [for example: MS IE may
be the only choice or best working choice for Window Eyes, Jaws,
etc... ]
holly
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From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Fri, Oct 11 2002 10:03AM
Subject: RE: Oh, great! this is just what we need...
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While Timothy is a converted Opera User, there are certain points about
Opera I don't like, including it's lack of support for Accesskeys, it's
rather unusual rendering of some of CSS2, it's chameleon like behaviour (I
don't see being able to spoof itself as something else or as declaring
itself as Opera as a feature, but an annoyance). It also tends to be a bit
intensive for less computer savvy users, who don't see the multiple
customization features of Opera as a benefit, but again as a hinderance...
they just want to go on the web and do their thing. Other contributors
mention their mothers or fathers as examples... I know I need to "fix" my
Dad's computer every time I go to visit (he's always got a list...). Giving
him Opera would be a discourgement to him; it would be too complex.
Finally, why should the end user have to jump through hoops to avoid these
annoyances? While it's true that Opera allows this granular a
customization, it is not an excuse for poor development practices, which is
REALLY the point. Opera power users can avoid this crud, but the bulk of
users cannot - shame on Yahoo, MSN, 'et al' for stooping to this... they
tempt the wrath of end users who will stop going to their sites because of
these intrusions.
JF
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Timothy J. Luoma [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: October 11, 2002 12:04 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: Oh, great! this is just what we need...
>
>
>
> I am continually amazed by what people allow their browsers to do to them.
>
> In Opera > F12 >
> [ ] Enable plugins (turns off Flash)
> [ ] Enable animated GIFs
> [ ] Refuse popup windows
>
> and if you really want to get crazy
>
> [ ] disable javascript
> [X] show cached images only
>
> This lets me use the web as I want to, without being subjected to all
> that crap.
>
> Why anyone who knows anything about being online ever sees a popup
> window is beyond my comprehension.
>
> TjL
>
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
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From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Fri, Oct 11 2002 10:03AM
Subject: RE: Oh, great! this is just what we need...
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>
> Some users are locked into using particular browsers because the
> software or device they use only works with one. [for example: MS IE may
> be the only choice or best working choice for Window Eyes, Jaws,
> etc... ]
>
hear hear! I have a friend who uses Netscape 4 because it works best with
Dragon Dictate, not because it's a great browser...
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From: Tom Gilder
Date: Fri, Oct 11 2002 11:32AM
Subject: Re: Oh, great! this is just what we need...
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On Friday, October 11, 2002, 12:47:20 PM, John Foliot - bytown internet wrote:
> Run, don't walk, away screaming:
> http://www.bizreport.com/article.php?art_id=3783
Hehe, I'm always amazed that advertising people haven't discovered
some of the more fun IE functions - lots of fun can be had with
showModalDialog :)
Good thing I have scripting disabled unless I trust a site (or it's
been built very poorly and requires scripting).
Also, I'm always amazed by the way that pretty much all banner-ads
have alt="Click here". Good for any screen reader or text-only users,
bad for whoever's advert is displayed :)
--
Tom Gilder
http://tom.me.uk/
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From: Timothy J. Luoma
Date: Fri, Oct 11 2002 11:47AM
Subject: Re: Oh, great! this is just what we need...
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John Foliot - bytown internet wrote:
> it's chameleon like behaviour (I don't see being able to spoof itself
> as something else or as declaring itself as Opera as a feature, but
> an annoyance).
While I don't mind anyone criticizing Opera (and I have my complaints
to), I find this particular note bothersome... not directing this at
John, but in general, because people criticize Opera for this a lot, and
to me it makes no sense.
There's this extremely common practice called 'browser sniffing' and if
you aren't the browser that 'they' want you to be, then 'they' keep you
from their site, even if it will work fine.
For example, Opera does Hotmail just fine. But if I ID = Opera, I have
to look at a screen EVERY TIME I login that gives me 4 lines of 'Your
browser may not be able to handle this site' blah blah blah.
If I ID as IE, then it lets me right in.
Web designers are to blame for this... designers who wrote sites for
specific browsers and used JavaScript to gatekeep.
Do you use Internet Explorer? Do you realize that it pretends to be
Mozilla, err, Netscape? Don't believe me? Go to
http://tntluoma.com/php/ua.php with IE and tell me what you see... the
first word will probably be something like "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible)"
IE started doing that after web designers started making sites that
would only work in Netscape... but by then people had already started
sniffing browsers, and IE didn't want to be left out, so they pretended
to be Netscape.
Now sites are checking for MSIE because some sites will NOT let you in
unless you are IE.
So Opera pretends to be IE. Otherwise its customers would not be able
to access many sites, including online banking sites. And that does not
make people happy.
It's not Opera's fault that web designers have created this situation,
they are just trying to deal with the reality of life on the web.
TjL
ps -- I wrote about this at
http://tntluoma.com/opera/lover/day15-instant/ which might give some
more information for those who aren't bored stiff by now.
--
The homepage is the place where,
when you have to go there,
you have a lot to take in.
(With apologies to Frost.)
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From: Tom Gilder
Date: Fri, Oct 11 2002 12:12PM
Subject: Re: Oh, great! this is just what we need...
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On Friday, October 11, 2002, 7:35:36 PM, Timothy J. Luoma wrote:
> There's this extremely common practice called 'browser sniffing' and if
> you aren't the browser that 'they' want you to be, then 'they' keep you
> from their site, even if it will work fine.
<snip>
Yes, I'm aware that Opera users face hardship with poor browser
sniffing. But Opera could deal with this much better - defaulting to
properly identifying as Opera, and allowing per-domain UA setting.
It could also attempt to automatically detect "your browser isn't
supported" messages, and try a different UA string.
--
Tom Gilder
http://tom.me.uk/
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