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Thread: Are ambiguous links awful even when there's surrounding context?

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From: Isabel Holdsworth
Date: Fri, Apr 26 2019 7:57AM
Subject: Are ambiguous links awful even when there's surrounding context?
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If the "View more" link is in a paragraph of its own, which they often
are, then it will constitute a WCAG2 fail because the link isn't in
the same context as its surrounding content.

Hope this helps.

On 02/04/2019, Maupin, Brennan Polaris McCaffrey - maupinbp
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I am new to this so take my opinion for what it is worth, but if I am
> correct, if there is surrounding text that provides context, it is AA
> compliant. I am aware that you cannot use guidelines to pass/fail something;
> however, it is useful that in a couple of their advisory techniques w3c
> gives specific examples of unclear (out of context) links in enclosed lists
> preceded by descriptive headings.
>
> I was actually pretty surprised that this was this was passing criterion. I
> have always heard it is best practice to use descripting link text for the
> links-list-view on screen readers. That looks like it is AAA criterion,
> however.
>
> -Brennan Maupin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Jeremy Echols
> Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 10:21 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Are ambiguous links awful even when there's surrounding
> context?
>
> Background: we're trying to prioritize problems in a third-party application
> where remediation can be expensive. To say the least.
>
> I am aware that when there's *only* a "view more" link, it's not helpful,
> but what about when that link is in a list alongside related links? For
> instance, we have a list of facets. Within the "author" section, there are
> 10 or so linked names followed by a "View more" link. Then there's another
> section for Subjects, etc. Each section is under an h2-level heading, and
> each list of links is within an unordered list tag (ul).
>
> I'm aware this isn't ideal, but are we looking at a AA failure?
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d=DwICAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=tzjt3_Kd4qvmdydGF10YVA&m=k14x4zmb_10m8lmsb2qacQyeXqLl_HCT5vbS6gKLGEQ&s=63kHDIyBeISl3oubLIGzWUuLPsCFx34JpbWzyXv2t74&e=
> List archives at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discussion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=tzjt3_Kd4qvmdydGF10YVA&m=k14x4zmb_10m8lmsb2qacQyeXqLl_HCT5vbS6gKLGEQ&s=k8ybmeF9LZQQQpwqEaGM0nmGP2s7O3tAVwhrxRaWmQg&e=
> > > > > >

From: Jeremy Echols
Date: Fri, Apr 26 2019 10:36AM
Subject: Re: Are ambiguous links awful even when there's surrounding context?
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In our case, the "view more" link is in a list item element directly after other list items, where the list itself is given a heading. I *think* it's got context, but it's not entirely clear to me if items in a list are considered to be within the same context as the other items and the heading.

Below is an example of the HTML:

<h2>Authors</h2>
<ul>
<li><a ...>Jane Doe</a></li>
<li><a ...>Joe Smith</a></li>
<li><a ...>View More</a></li>
</ul>

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Isabel Holdsworth
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2019 6:58 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Are ambiguous links awful even when there's surrounding context?

If the "View more" link is in a paragraph of its own, which they often are, then it will constitute a WCAG2 fail because the link isn't in the same context as its surrounding content.

Hope this helps.

On 02/04/2019, Maupin, Brennan Polaris McCaffrey - maupinbp < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I am new to this so take my opinion for what it is worth, but if I am
> correct, if there is surrounding text that provides context, it is AA
> compliant. I am aware that you cannot use guidelines to pass/fail
> something; however, it is useful that in a couple of their advisory
> techniques w3c gives specific examples of unclear (out of context)
> links in enclosed lists preceded by descriptive headings.
>
> I was actually pretty surprised that this was this was passing
> criterion. I have always heard it is best practice to use descripting
> link text for the links-list-view on screen readers. That looks like
> it is AAA criterion, however.
>
> -Brennan Maupin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Jeremy Echols
> Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 10:21 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Are ambiguous links awful even when there's
> surrounding context?
>
> Background: we're trying to prioritize problems in a third-party
> application where remediation can be expensive. To say the least.
>
> I am aware that when there's *only* a "view more" link, it's not
> helpful, but what about when that link is in a list alongside related
> links? For instance, we have a list of facets. Within the "author"
> section, there are
> 10 or so linked names followed by a "View more" link. Then there's
> another section for Subjects, etc. Each section is under an h2-level
> heading, and each list of links is within an unordered list tag (ul).
>
> I'm aware this isn't ideal, but are we looking at a AA failure?
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d
> =DwICAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=tzjt3_Kd4qvmdy
> dGF10YVA&m=k14x4zmb_10m8lmsb2qacQyeXqLl_HCT5vbS6gKLGEQ&s=63kHDIyBeISl3
> oubLIGzWUuLPsCFx34JpbWzyXv2t74&e=
> List archives at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discuss
> ion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=
> tzjt3_Kd4qvmdydGF10YVA&m=k14x4zmb_10m8lmsb2qacQyeXqLl_HCT5vbS6gKLGEQ&s
> =k8ybmeF9LZQQQpwqEaGM0nmGP2s7O3tAVwhrxRaWmQg&e=
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: Graham Armfield
Date: Mon, Apr 29 2019 12:11AM
Subject: Re: Are ambiguous links awful even when there's surrounding context?
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Could it not just say 'View more authors'?

Regards
Graham Armfield

Coolfields Consulting

From: Jeremy Echols
Date: Mon, Apr 29 2019 12:32PM
Subject: Re: Are ambiguous links awful even when there's surrounding context?
← Previous message | Next message →

In a perfect world, yes, but it's an application we run that we didn't create, and which has a surprising amount of complexity when trying to override the UI. So we're trying to prioritize what to fix first. This kind of problem seems like a lot of work for relatively minimal gain compared to other issues, but I wanted to double-check.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Graham Armfield
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:11 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Are ambiguous links awful even when there's surrounding context?

Could it not just say 'View more authors'?

Regards
Graham Armfield

Coolfields Consulting

From: Brian Lovely
Date: Mon, Apr 29 2019 1:43PM
Subject: Re: [External Sender]Are ambiguous links awful even when there's surrounding context?
← Previous message | Next message →

My gripe about "view more" links is that when a user leverages a feature
like NVDA's list of links, they just see a bunch of links with generic text
and have no idea what they're for.

On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:32 PM Jeremy Echols < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> In a perfect world, yes, but it's an application we run that we didn't
> create, and which has a surprising amount of complexity when trying to
> override the UI. So we're trying to prioritize what to fix first. This
> kind of problem seems like a lot of work for relatively minimal gain
> compared to other issues, but I wanted to double-check.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Graham Armfield
> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:11 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Are ambiguous links awful even when there's
> surrounding context?
>
> Could it not just say 'View more authors'?
>
> Regards
> Graham Armfield
>
> Coolfields Consulting
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d=DwICAg&c=pLULRYW__RtkwsQUPxJVDGboCTdgji3AcHNJU0BpTJE&r=nA3L5qBjLdo-DJ8qQBz88lq5Xb3jw-WFZTeJjcwjLdE&m=ieriyxpUdSPGCHlBJCMmsKT3st1SXHHK4SJinLFZZVM&s=tUOj_aVgwLOrxSaTVGD6RVU4h0NYaR0-hhD_Sn3HN4Q&e=
> List archives at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discussion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=pLULRYW__RtkwsQUPxJVDGboCTdgji3AcHNJU0BpTJE&r=nA3L5qBjLdo-DJ8qQBz88lq5Xb3jw-WFZTeJjcwjLdE&m=ieriyxpUdSPGCHlBJCMmsKT3st1SXHHK4SJinLFZZVM&s=g_gE1pkowEf_Sgqn3aZrbo9ahAnWc-VmJChP1SkJJ5I&e=
> > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d=DwICAg&c=pLULRYW__RtkwsQUPxJVDGboCTdgji3AcHNJU0BpTJE&r=nA3L5qBjLdo-DJ8qQBz88lq5Xb3jw-WFZTeJjcwjLdE&m=ieriyxpUdSPGCHlBJCMmsKT3st1SXHHK4SJinLFZZVM&s=tUOj_aVgwLOrxSaTVGD6RVU4h0NYaR0-hhD_Sn3HN4Q&e=
> List archives at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discussion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=pLULRYW__RtkwsQUPxJVDGboCTdgji3AcHNJU0BpTJE&r=nA3L5qBjLdo-DJ8qQBz88lq5Xb3jw-WFZTeJjcwjLdE&m=ieriyxpUdSPGCHlBJCMmsKT3st1SXHHK4SJinLFZZVM&s=g_gE1pkowEf_Sgqn3aZrbo9ahAnWc-VmJChP1SkJJ5I&e=
> >


--
*Brian Lovely*
Digital Accessibility
804.389.1064

The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be used solely in performance of work or services for Capital One. The information transmitted herewith is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from your computer.

From: Jeremy Echols
Date: Tue, Apr 30 2019 6:39AM
Subject: Re: [External Sender]Are ambiguous links awful even when there's surrounding context?
← Previous message | No next message

Yeah, as I say it's far from ideal, we're just trying to decide if they're top priority.

In this case, you'd get a list of probably 50 links where 3 would be "view more" and the rest would be out-of-context facets like an author's name. I don't know that a list of links would be very useful without the surrounding heading that tells you it's an author filter. Especially since some of our authors are actually entities like "United States. Bureau of Land Management. Prineville District".

When an article is shown, its title is linked, but these facets are where things get a bit complicated.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Brian Lovely via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 12:43 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: Brian Lovely < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [External Sender] Re: Are ambiguous links awful even when there's surrounding context?

My gripe about "view more" links is that when a user leverages a feature like NVDA's list of links, they just see a bunch of links with generic text and have no idea what they're for.

On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:32 PM Jeremy Echols < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> In a perfect world, yes, but it's an application we run that we didn't
> create, and which has a surprising amount of complexity when trying to
> override the UI. So we're trying to prioritize what to fix first.
> This kind of problem seems like a lot of work for relatively minimal
> gain compared to other issues, but I wanted to double-check.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Graham Armfield
> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:11 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Are ambiguous links awful even when there's
> surrounding context?
>
> Could it not just say 'View more authors'?
>
> Regards
> Graham Armfield
>
> Coolfields Consulting
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d
> =DwICAg&c=pLULRYW__RtkwsQUPxJVDGboCTdgji3AcHNJU0BpTJE&r=nA3L5qBjLdo-DJ
> 8qQBz88lq5Xb3jw-WFZTeJjcwjLdE&m=ieriyxpUdSPGCHlBJCMmsKT3st1SXHHK4SJinL
> FZZVM&s=tUOj_aVgwLOrxSaTVGD6RVU4h0NYaR0-hhD_Sn3HN4Q&e=
> List archives at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discuss
> ion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=pLULRYW__RtkwsQUPxJVDGboCTdgji3AcHNJU0BpTJE&r=
> nA3L5qBjLdo-DJ8qQBz88lq5Xb3jw-WFZTeJjcwjLdE&m=ieriyxpUdSPGCHlBJCMmsKT3
> st1SXHHK4SJinLFZZVM&s=g_gE1pkowEf_Sgqn3aZrbo9ahAnWc-VmJChP1SkJJ5I&e=
> > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d
> =DwICAg&c=pLULRYW__RtkwsQUPxJVDGboCTdgji3AcHNJU0BpTJE&r=nA3L5qBjLdo-DJ
> 8qQBz88lq5Xb3jw-WFZTeJjcwjLdE&m=ieriyxpUdSPGCHlBJCMmsKT3st1SXHHK4SJinL
> FZZVM&s=tUOj_aVgwLOrxSaTVGD6RVU4h0NYaR0-hhD_Sn3HN4Q&e=
> List archives at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discuss
> ion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=pLULRYW__RtkwsQUPxJVDGboCTdgji3AcHNJU0BpTJE&r=
> nA3L5qBjLdo-DJ8qQBz88lq5Xb3jw-WFZTeJjcwjLdE&m=ieriyxpUdSPGCHlBJCMmsKT3
> st1SXHHK4SJinLFZZVM&s=g_gE1pkowEf_Sgqn3aZrbo9ahAnWc-VmJChP1SkJJ5I&e=
> >


--
*Brian Lovely*
Digital Accessibility
804.389.1064

The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be used solely in performance of work or services for Capital One. The information transmitted herewith is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from your computer.