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From: Wolfgang Berndorfer
Date: Thu, May 02 2019 2:34PM
Subject: SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
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Hi especially non-English native speakers,



SC 3.1.2 takes out *proper names* from the obligation to attribute phrases,
when phrase language differs from the language of the page. But why and
when?



I didn’t find any further information in the W3C understanding section or in
the archives of this discussion list, except for following small hint in the
W3C understanding section:

https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/meaning-other-lang-id.html#meanin
g-other-lang-id-188-head

“Providing language markup on proper names to facilitate correct
pronunciation by screen readers (future link)”



So I ask You for correction and comments to my following thoughts:



1. The pronunciation of the proper name through synthesized speech should
sound similar to the pronunciation of the name in broadcast media in the
default language of the document.



German language radio stations commonly pronounce the name of English or
French persons in an English or French way. French radio stations on the
other hand pronounce any name usually in a French way. This is what
listeners are used to and should hear from their speech engine.



For example the name of the former French president, François Hollande, on
German stations always was pronounced like it would have been in French. So
no screen reader user would know, whom it’s about, if “Hollande” was
pronounced via German sythesizers. And for the English community on the
other hand: Who is the man who is pronounced in German like Shwurzenega?



So what stays from the exception for proper names in 3.1.2?:



2. Proper names need no lang-attribution, if the pronunciation between
habitual and synthesized listening only differs in nuances of accentuation
or intonation.



Thanks for input!



Wolfgang

From: jeffgutsell
Date: Fri, May 03 2019 9:41AM
Subject: Re: SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
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Hello Wolfgang,
Are there any online resources for identifying how proper names are
pronounced? Content developers are bound to encounter names where they do
not know what language to use.
Years ago, I helped maintain a newspaper style guide that included some
pronunciation rules. I think this was done to help reporters be informed
when dealing with the public. We did not give this guide out.
Jeff Gutsell

From: Wolfgang Berndorfer
Date: Fri, May 03 2019 12:12PM
Subject: Re: SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
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Hi Jeff,
I don’t know of any online resources about how proper names are pronounced
or should be pronounced. How they are pronounced by a speech engine, you can
test with a screen reader.
But: How they should be pronounced, is my question. And technically that
means, when should a proper name get a lang-attribute, if it’s not a proper
name of the default language.
You mentioned an older guide for newspapers. Note, that my issue is about
acoustic representation of proper names.
Did this help?
Wolfgang 

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Im Auftrag
von = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Gesendet: Freitag, 03. Mai 2019 17:41
An: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Betreff: Re: [WebAIM] SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names

Hello Wolfgang,
Are there any online resources for identifying how proper names are
pronounced? Content developers are bound to encounter names where they do
not know what language to use.
Years ago, I helped maintain a newspaper style guide that included some
pronunciation rules. I think this was done to help reporters be informed
when dealing with the public. We did not give this guide out.
Jeff Gutsell

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Fri, May 03 2019 12:51PM
Subject: Re: SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
← Previous message | Next message →

I agree with your interpretation that the pronounciation of names and
places should be consistent with the document language, especially
when the language is the default language of the user or region.
Users are used to hearing names and words in foreign languages treated
a certain way, whether it's in the local media or via their screen
reader. I think it would only confuse the user if we started messing
with that and marking up single words or names with the proper
language tags.

I think over tagging is more likely to cause issues than under tagging.
I often run into issues when reading articles with embedded Twitter
feeds of non-native English speakers writing in English.
Twitter seems to automatically apply a language tagging based on the
user's location. This causes screen readers to try to read English
text with German, French or Spanish synthesizers which effectively
renders them incomprehensible to me, I just switch language detection
off.



On 5/3/19, Wolfgang Berndorfer < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
> I don't know of any online resources about how proper names are pronounced
> or should be pronounced. How they are pronounced by a speech engine, you
> can
> test with a screen reader.
> But: How they should be pronounced, is my question. And technically that
> means, when should a proper name get a lang-attribute, if it's not a proper
> name of the default language.
> You mentioned an older guide for newspapers. Note, that my issue is about
> acoustic representation of proper names.
> Did this help?
> Wolfgang
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Im Auftrag
> von = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Gesendet: Freitag, 03. Mai 2019 17:41
> An: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
> Betreff: Re: [WebAIM] SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
>
> Hello Wolfgang,
> Are there any online resources for identifying how proper names are
> pronounced? Content developers are bound to encounter names where they do
> not know what language to use.
> Years ago, I helped maintain a newspaper style guide that included some
> pronunciation rules. I think this was done to help reporters be informed
> when dealing with the public. We did not give this guide out.
> Jeff Gutsell
>
>
>

From: jeffgutsell
Date: Fri, May 03 2019 1:07PM
Subject: Re: SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
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No. I am thinking of situations where the Web developer does not have
background information about the name Perhaps they can do a Web search to
determine the relevant nation and language.

From: John Foliot
Date: Fri, May 03 2019 1:24PM
Subject: Re: SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
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Hi All,

I think, in the end, this comes down to a matter of subjective
determination.

For example, Wolfgang's name may or may not be pronounced with an emphasis
on the "W" sound, but perhaps a more "V" sound (Volfgang), that may or may
not matter in some contexts, but in others may have a significant impact.
(For example, in a literary context).

In other circumstances, some "names" may be more problematic than others:
for example, my name in French is Jean (J E A N), which *should* be
pronounced as (something approximating) "jzawn" (with a very soft N), and /
but certainly not "Geen". In the context of an email, no harm, no foul; but
in other contexts it may make a significant difference.

The exception in WCAG states: *Proper names need no lang-attribution, if
the pronunciation between habitual and synthesized listening only differs
in nuances of accentuation or intonation ,* and I've offered 2 different
scenarios where the first (Wolfgang) likely meets this exception, but the
French variant of my name (Jean) would likely require the lang attribute to
ensure proper pronunciation.

Finally, the exception is offering times when adding the lang attribute is
*optional*, but that does not mean that you cannot do so. So (again)
depending on the context, it remains a subjective call on the content
author: if you feel it is correct to do so, do so.

HTH

JF

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:07 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> No. I am thinking of situations where the Web developer does not have
> background information about the name Perhaps they can do a Web search to
> determine the relevant nation and language.
>
>

From: Wolfgang Berndorfer
Date: Fri, May 03 2019 1:56PM
Subject: Re: SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
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Hi Jeff,
Why do you mention web developers? We're talking about *parts* to consider
for lang-attribution. These are mainly published in the main-content, which
is mostly edited by people who are confirm with the materia, they are
talking about. So mostly they won't need no further research to know about
the language of the nemes, they use.
And if the part is inside the technical framework, e.g. as link in a nav,
the language declaration would apply to a whole webside. So this small
effort could be reasonable.
Wolfgang

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Im Auftrag
von = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Gesendet: Freitag, 03. Mai 2019 21:07
An: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Betreff: Re: [WebAIM] SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names

No. I am thinking of situations where the Web developer does not have
background information about the name Perhaps they can do a Web search to
determine the relevant nation and language.

From: Wolfgang Berndorfer
Date: Sat, May 04 2019 3:12PM
Subject: Re: SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
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Hi all,
Thanks for inputs on acoustically relevant text design for parts of pages!
I just consulted additionally 3.1.6 (Pronunciation) to get probable further input. But this SC treats pronunciation of issues within *one* language. So it doesn't seem relevant to this discussion.
An interpretation of the SC in the W3C understanding section is not available yet. So we have to and may discuss.

I try a first summary of the discussion and further questions. So please take a choice for following questions:

1. Conforming to SC 3.1.2 language attribution for proper names in foreign languages is necessary:
a) Never. The SC says, proper names are an exception.
b) Conditionally: Principle 3 is about *understanding* and proper names have also to be *acoustically* understandable.

2. Conforming to SC 3.1.2 attributions are *allowed*:
a) Never. Many changes of speech synthesizer languages are just irritating.
b) Conditionally: Depending on user experience and hereby especially accessibility experience, language attribution can and should be considered.

3. Following contexts should be mentioned for attribution of foreign language:
- Block elements: Foreign language expressions in navigation-areas like "homepage" or "facebook" only need small effort in the template for the whole webside to get acoustically precision. So attribute the language change!
- Usability: Whom is the text for? Experienced screen reader users are used to understand the wrong pronunciation of "Homepage", "Facebook" and the like in their default non-english synthesizer.
- …

I fear, a recommendation for relying usability issues can't be decided without surveys of AT user preferences.
Ideas for further clarification?
Thanks!
Wolfgang

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Im Auftrag von John Foliot
Gesendet: Freitag, 03. Mai 2019 21:25
An: WebAIM Discussion List
Betreff: Re: [WebAIM] SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names

Hi All,

I think, in the end, this comes down to a matter of subjective
determination.

For example, Wolfgang's name may or may not be pronounced with an emphasis
on the "W" sound, but perhaps a more "V" sound (Volfgang), that may or may
not matter in some contexts, but in others may have a significant impact.
(For example, in a literary context).

In other circumstances, some "names" may be more problematic than others:
for example, my name in French is Jean (J E A N), which *should* be
pronounced as (something approximating) "jzawn" (with a very soft N), and /
but certainly not "Geen". In the context of an email, no harm, no foul; but
in other contexts it may make a significant difference.

The exception in WCAG states: *Proper names need no lang-attribution, if
the pronunciation between habitual and synthesized listening only differs
in nuances of accentuation or intonation ,* and I've offered 2 different
scenarios where the first (Wolfgang) likely meets this exception, but the
French variant of my name (Jean) would likely require the lang attribute to
ensure proper pronunciation.

Finally, the exception is offering times when adding the lang attribute is
*optional*, but that does not mean that you cannot do so. So (again)
depending on the context, it remains a subjective call on the content
author: if you feel it is correct to do so, do so.

HTH

JF

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:07 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> No. I am thinking of situations where the Web developer does not have
> background information about the name Perhaps they can do a Web search to
> determine the relevant nation and language.
>
>

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Sat, May 04 2019 3:32PM
Subject: Re: SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
← Previous message | Next message →

My personal take here...

On 04/05/2019 22:12, Wolfgang Berndorfer wrote:
[...]
> 1. Conforming to SC 3.1.2 language attribution for proper names in foreign languages is necessary:
> a) Never. The SC says, proper names are an exception.
> b) Conditionally: Principle 3 is about *understanding* and proper names have also to be *acoustically* understandable.

Normatively, going purely by the SC text, it's a)

> 2. Conforming to SC 3.1.2 attributions are *allowed*:
> a) Never. Many changes of speech synthesizer languages are just irritating.
> b) Conditionally: Depending on user experience and hereby especially accessibility experience, language attribution can and should be considered.

b) - you're then going outside of the scope of WCAG, into "aural
usability" of sorts. It's up to you/your judgement. 3.1.2 does not
DISallow going above and beyond the normative SC text.

> 3. Following contexts should be mentioned for attribution of foreign language:
> - Block elements: Foreign language expressions in navigation-areas like "homepage" or "facebook" only need small effort in the template for the whole webside to get acoustically precision. So attribute the language change!
> - Usability: Whom is the text for? Experienced screen reader users are used to understand the wrong pronunciation of "Homepage", "Facebook" and the like in their default non-english synthesizer.

Again, that's up to you. Words like "homepage" or "facebook" fall under
the "have become part of the vernacular" exception. So same answer as 2 b)

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Wolfgang Berndorfer
Date: Mon, May 06 2019 11:57AM
Subject: Re: SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
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Hi all,
According to Patrick's interpretation, pronunciation issues of proper names like *Jean* in French / English would be an usability issue and not a problem of conformance to 3.1.2.
In response to JF I'd be interested in criteria for subjective applyment.
The SC itself only mentions *human language* to be technically determined and takes off proper names. Human language is defined as *language that is spoken, written or signed (through visual or tactile means) to communicate with humans*.
Does this include listened language?
Pronunciation, accentuation and intonation are just mentioned in the understanding section. And the pronunciation is classified as an AAA conformance SC in 3.1.6.
Seems we have to reflect the normativity of the understanding section.
So:
1) Should we consider the exception of proper names as strict and universal? (listening apprehension sounds substantially as requirement for *communicate with humans*.)
2) Should we judge the understanding section of the WCAG generally as normative or as substational interpretation or just as informative?
From a normative conformance point of view, I fear that Patrick is right with his interpretation. But from AX point of view, pronunciation often causes irritation also with proper names, especially if you are interested in politics or geography (not only with German as default language).
Regards!
Wolfgang

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Im Auftrag von John Foliot
Gesendet: Freitag, 03. Mai 2019 21:25
An: WebAIM Discussion List
Betreff: Re: [WebAIM] SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names

Hi All,

I think, in the end, this comes down to a matter of subjective
determination.

For example, Wolfgang's name may or may not be pronounced with an emphasis
on the "W" sound, but perhaps a more "V" sound (Volfgang), that may or may
not matter in some contexts, but in others may have a significant impact.
(For example, in a literary context).

In other circumstances, some "names" may be more problematic than others:
for example, my name in French is Jean (J E A N), which *should* be
pronounced as (something approximating) "jzawn" (with a very soft N), and /
but certainly not "Geen". In the context of an email, no harm, no foul; but
in other contexts it may make a significant difference.

The exception in WCAG states: *Proper names need no lang-attribution, if
the pronunciation between habitual and synthesized listening only differs
in nuances of accentuation or intonation ,* and I've offered 2 different
scenarios where the first (Wolfgang) likely meets this exception, but the
French variant of my name (Jean) would likely require the lang attribute to
ensure proper pronunciation.

Finally, the exception is offering times when adding the lang attribute is
*optional*, but that does not mean that you cannot do so. So (again)
depending on the context, it remains a subjective call on the content
author: if you feel it is correct to do so, do so.

HTH

JF

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:07 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> No. I am thinking of situations where the Web developer does not have
> background information about the name Perhaps they can do a Web search to
> determine the relevant nation and language.
>
>

From: John Foliot
Date: Mon, May 06 2019 2:29PM
Subject: Re: SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
← Previous message | Next message →

Wolfgang writes:

> According to Patrick's interpretation, pronunciation issues of proper
names like *Jean* in French / English would be an usability issue and not a
problem of conformance to 3.1.2.

From a "legally conforming" perspective, evaluators do not need to call
this as a compliance failure. But again, they "legally" cannot fail this
code sample either:

<img src="" alt="logo">.

Putting aside the exemptions of SC 1.1.1, it still only states: "*All
non-text content that is presented to the user has a text alternative that
serves the equivalent purpose, except for the situations listed below*."
Equivalency is and will always remain a subjective call.

In other words, the "quality" of the web output is not something measured
in "legal compliance reports", although it is surely something we care
about at a higher level.

Based upon the above, and looking at what the spec states related to SC
3.1.2, it states: "*The human language of each passage or phrase in the
content can be [JF: read, "must be"] programmatically determined except for
proper names, technical terms, words of indeterminate language, and words
or phrases that have become part of the vernacular of the immediately
surrounding text." *- which outlines what *MUST* be marked up, but does not
specifically forbid authors from adding @lang on proper names, technical
terms, words of indeterminate language, or words or phrases that have
become part of the vernacular of the immediately surrounding text, only
that it's not mandated. (i.e. you could NOT fail this - <span
lang-"fr">Jean</span>)

In response to JF I'd be interested in criteria for subjective applyment.


Well, the "*Proper names need no lang-attribution, if the pronunciation
between habitual and synthesized listening only differs in nuances of
accentuation or intonation*" quote isn't in the normative text, but it's a
'hint' as to how to apply subjective decisions; the key to that quote (to
my mind) is the qualifier: IF

So, subject matter expertise, experience, and "context" all need to apply.
If, in your professional opinion, the user-experience is improved by adding
the lang attribute to a proper name, then do it. Else, don't - you won't
fail "legal conformance" either way.

JF

On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 12:57 PM Wolfgang Berndorfer <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi all,
> According to Patrick's interpretation, pronunciation issues of proper
> names like *Jean* in French / English would be an usability issue and not a
> problem of conformance to 3.1.2.
> In response to JF I'd be interested in criteria for subjective applyment.
> The SC itself only mentions *human language* to be technically determined
> and takes off proper names. Human language is defined as *language that is
> spoken, written or signed (through visual or tactile means) to communicate
> with humans*.
> Does this include listened language?
> Pronunciation, accentuation and intonation are just mentioned in the
> understanding section. And the pronunciation is classified as an AAA
> conformance SC in 3.1.6.
> Seems we have to reflect the normativity of the understanding section.
> So:
> 1) Should we consider the exception of proper names as strict and
> universal? (listening apprehension sounds substantially as requirement for
> *communicate with humans*.)
> 2) Should we judge the understanding section of the WCAG generally as
> normative or as substational interpretation or just as informative?
> From a normative conformance point of view, I fear that Patrick is right
> with his interpretation. But from AX point of view, pronunciation often
> causes irritation also with proper names, especially if you are interested
> in politics or geography (not only with German as default language).
> Regards!
> Wolfgang
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Im
> Auftrag von John Foliot
> Gesendet: Freitag, 03. Mai 2019 21:25
> An: WebAIM Discussion List
> Betreff: Re: [WebAIM] SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
>
> Hi All,
>
> I think, in the end, this comes down to a matter of subjective
> determination.
>
> For example, Wolfgang's name may or may not be pronounced with an emphasis
> on the "W" sound, but perhaps a more "V" sound (Volfgang), that may or may
> not matter in some contexts, but in others may have a significant impact.
> (For example, in a literary context).
>
> In other circumstances, some "names" may be more problematic than others:
> for example, my name in French is Jean (J E A N), which *should* be
> pronounced as (something approximating) "jzawn" (with a very soft N), and /
> but certainly not "Geen". In the context of an email, no harm, no foul; but
> in other contexts it may make a significant difference.
>
> The exception in WCAG states: *Proper names need no lang-attribution, if
> the pronunciation between habitual and synthesized listening only differs
> in nuances of accentuation or intonation ,* and I've offered 2 different
> scenarios where the first (Wolfgang) likely meets this exception, but the
> French variant of my name (Jean) would likely require the lang attribute to
> ensure proper pronunciation.
>
> Finally, the exception is offering times when adding the lang attribute is
> *optional*, but that does not mean that you cannot do so. So (again)
> depending on the context, it remains a subjective call on the content
> author: if you feel it is correct to do so, do so.
>
> HTH
>
> JF
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:07 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > No. I am thinking of situations where the Web developer does not have
> > background information about the name Perhaps they can do a Web search to
> > determine the relevant nation and language.
> >
> >

From: Scott Chandler
Date: Tue, May 07 2019 6:38AM
Subject: Re: SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
← Previous message | Next message →

>
> > Hi Jeff,
> > I don't know of any online resources about how proper names are
> pronounced
> > or should be pronounced. ...
> > Did this help?
> > WolfganG
>

There are many sites that have recordings of names to help others with
pronunciation:

http://hearnames.com/component/mtree/search?searchword=Chandler
https://www.pronouncenames.com/search?name=Chandler
https://inogolo.com/pronunciation/query?qstr=chandler
and many others


--
S.B. Chandler, PhD
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Division of Information Technology
AISB, 1700 Pratt Drive, Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, Virginia 24061
USA

From: Wolfgang Berndorfer
Date: Tue, May 07 2019 2:03PM
Subject: Re: SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
← Previous message | No next message

Hi Scott,
Fine, if there are ressources to get the pronunciation of proper names in
the web. I just tested http://hearnames.com/.
Tried  out to find out the pronunciation of the name of the Austrian
chancelor: No rsult.
Anyway, we want to understand by listening and not by googleing.
Wolfgang

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Im Auftrag
von Scott Chandler
Gesendet: Dienstag, 07. Mai 2019 14:39
An: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Betreff: Re: [WebAIM] SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names

>
> > Hi Jeff,
> > I don’t know of any online resources about how proper names are
> pronounced
> > or should be pronounced. ...
> > Did this help?
> > WolfganG
>

There are many sites that have recordings of names to help others with
pronunciation:

http://hearnames.com/component/mtree/search?searchword=Chandler
https://www.pronouncenames.com/search?name=Chandler
https://inogolo.com/pronunciation/query?qstr=chandler
and many others


--
S.B. Chandler, PhD
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Division of Information Technology
AISB, 1700 Pratt Drive, Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, Virginia 24061
USA