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Thread: Document within a document: how to mark up?

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From: Isabel Holdsworth
Date: Fri, Jun 21 2019 4:18AM
Subject: Document within a document: how to mark up?
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Hi all,

We have situations where a document is opened within a webpage. Say,
for example, a test question that asks the candidate to comment on a
piece of prose.

Currently, on the click of a button we present the prose in a panel
that sits on top of the existing page and can be dragged around the
screen and dismissed when it's no longer needed. We've marked this up
as a non-modal dialog (I keep trying to put a "ye" on the end of that
word).

But the information in the dialog can be long and complex, and I'm not
convinced a dialog is the correct container. I'm not convinced it's
the wrong container either. The panel needs to be movable and
closable, and AFAIK more than one panel can be visible at a time.

But if not a dialog, what should it be? An article? An aside? A
document? A document within a widget? What would be the best way to
help screenreader users understand what's going on and interact with
the different contexts on the page?

I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this.

Does anyone have an accessible example of a scenario like this? If so
would you be able to share it?

Thanks as always, Isabel

From: Bim Egan
Date: Fri, Jun 21 2019 4:44AM
Subject: Re: Document within a document: how to mark up?
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Hi Izy,

Is it possible to navigate back to the originating page from a non-modal
dialog? I don't know of any way. If not, then the oldie and much hated
JavaScript new window may be one solution to consider ... Users can then
leave it open and alt+tab back to the question and back again, as many times
as they need.

Cheers,

Bim
-------------
Bim Egan
Skype phone: 01223 96 87 96
Personal Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Skype ID: bim.accessequals

Coordinator: Describe Online
W: www.describe-online.com
E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
----------------------------------------
Partner: AccessEquals
W: www.accessequals.com
E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
Of Isabel Holdsworth
Sent: 21 June 2019 11:19
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] Document within a document: how to mark up?

Hi all,

We have situations where a document is opened within a webpage. Say, for
example, a test question that asks the candidate to comment on a piece of
prose.

Currently, on the click of a button we present the prose in a panel that
sits on top of the existing page and can be dragged around the screen and
dismissed when it's no longer needed. We've marked this up as a non-modal
dialog (I keep trying to put a "ye" on the end of that word).

But the information in the dialog can be long and complex, and I'm not
convinced a dialog is the correct container. I'm not convinced it's the
wrong container either. The panel needs to be movable and closable, and
AFAIK more than one panel can be visible at a time.

But if not a dialog, what should it be? An article? An aside? A document? A
document within a widget? What would be the best way to help screenreader
users understand what's going on and interact with the different contexts on
the page?

I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this.

Does anyone have an accessible example of a scenario like this? If so would
you be able to share it?

Thanks as always, Isabel
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
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From: Isabel Holdsworth
Date: Fri, Jun 21 2019 5:32AM
Subject: Re: Document within a document: how to mark up?
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Hi Bim,

The way it's currently marked up, the non-modal dialog looks like a
panel sitting on top of the original page. It has drag handles so it
can be moved over to one side (also works with a keyboard), and it can
be dismissed so that only the original page is visible, which puts the
focus on the button that opened the panel in the first place. So in
many ways it behaves like a dialog, but it just seems excessive to use
a dialog for a complete document.

We don't have the option of opening the extra content in a new window.
Some of our customers deliver tests using a Chromium browser that's
wrapped in an application to ensure security, in which case the
browser doesn't allow new windows to be spawned. So it all has to
happen on the same page.

Complexity and accessibility! Don't you just love it!

Cheers, Isabel

On 21/06/2019, Bim Egan < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Izy,
>
> Is it possible to navigate back to the originating page from a non-modal
> dialog? I don't know of any way. If not, then the oldie and much hated
> JavaScript new window may be one solution to consider ... Users can then
> leave it open and alt+tab back to the question and back again, as many
> times
> as they need.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bim
> -------------
> Bim Egan
> Skype phone: 01223 96 87 96
> Personal Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Skype ID: bim.accessequals
>
> Coordinator: Describe Online
> W: www.describe-online.com
> E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> ----------------------------------------
> Partner: AccessEquals
> W: www.accessequals.com
> E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Isabel Holdsworth
> Sent: 21 June 2019 11:19
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] Document within a document: how to mark up?
>
> Hi all,
>
> We have situations where a document is opened within a webpage. Say, for
> example, a test question that asks the candidate to comment on a piece of
> prose.
>
> Currently, on the click of a button we present the prose in a panel that
> sits on top of the existing page and can be dragged around the screen and
> dismissed when it's no longer needed. We've marked this up as a non-modal
> dialog (I keep trying to put a "ye" on the end of that word).
>
> But the information in the dialog can be long and complex, and I'm not
> convinced a dialog is the correct container. I'm not convinced it's the
> wrong container either. The panel needs to be movable and closable, and
> AFAIK more than one panel can be visible at a time.
>
> But if not a dialog, what should it be? An article? An aside? A document? A
> document within a widget? What would be the best way to help screenreader
> users understand what's going on and interact with the different contexts
> on
> the page?
>
> I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this.
>
> Does anyone have an accessible example of a scenario like this? If so would
> you be able to share it?
>
> Thanks as always, Isabel
> > > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
> > > > >

From: glen walker
Date: Fri, Jun 21 2019 7:35AM
Subject: Re: Document within a document: how to mark up?
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For a low vision or visually impaired screen reader user, whether the
non-modal dialog is an overlay or a separate tab wouldn't seem to make much
difference. You'd still have to toggle between the "dialog" and the main
page. Toggling between tabs is already a known keyboard interaction (such
as ctrl+tab) whereas toggling between windows is not.

For a sighted user, having the dialog on the same page would seem to be an
advantage. You wouldn't need to toggle as often.

As long as it's obvious and well documented on what keys are used to switch
between the non-modal and the main page (and how to move the non-modal), I
don't see this as a problem.

If it were allowed, it might be nice to have an option on the non-modal to
"undock" it so that it becomes a separate tab. (And be able to re-dock it
back to the main page.) That way the user gets to decide if they want a
floating non-modal or a separate tab.

From: Isabel Holdsworth
Date: Fri, Jun 21 2019 8:21AM
Subject: Re: Document within a document: how to mark up?
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks Glen. We're constrained to displaying both the main document
and the supplementary content on the same page - we can't open new
tabs.

The content panel feels like something other than a dialog to me. For
me dialogs are for asking a quick question or displaying a
confirmation message, and their mission is to be acted upon and
dismissed. I prefer dialogs to be modal. It's too easy for
screenreader users to get lost on pages that have non-modal dialogs on
them, especially if there could potentially be more than one visible
at a time, and if they could contain a significant amount of content.
The boundary between non-modal dialogs and main content is too soft. I
want these supplementary documents to be fenced off somehow, so that
screenreader users move into and out of them by choice rather than by
accident.

Cheers, Isabel

On 21/06/2019, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> For a low vision or visually impaired screen reader user, whether the
> non-modal dialog is an overlay or a separate tab wouldn't seem to make much
> difference. You'd still have to toggle between the "dialog" and the main
> page. Toggling between tabs is already a known keyboard interaction (such
> as ctrl+tab) whereas toggling between windows is not.
>
> For a sighted user, having the dialog on the same page would seem to be an
> advantage. You wouldn't need to toggle as often.
>
> As long as it's obvious and well documented on what keys are used to switch
> between the non-modal and the main page (and how to move the non-modal), I
> don't see this as a problem.
>
> If it were allowed, it might be nice to have an option on the non-modal to
> "undock" it so that it becomes a separate tab. (And be able to re-dock it
> back to the main page.) That way the user gets to decide if they want a
> floating non-modal or a separate tab.
> > > > >

From: glen walker
Date: Fri, Jun 21 2019 8:51AM
Subject: Re: Document within a document: how to mark up?
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Yes, I understand the constraint of being limited to one tab in the browser
but I wanted to toss out the other options in case someone else was
implementing something similar but didn't have that constraint.

While a dialog is often considered a modal thing, I don't think we should
be that restrictive. Perhaps I've been a software engineer for too many
decades but I don't limit myself in thinking that a dialog must be modal.
Non-modals can be very helpful in appropriate situations. I think the key
is to make it easy to move between all the non-modals and the main page.

From: Isabel Holdsworth
Date: Fri, Jun 21 2019 8:56AM
Subject: Re: Document within a document: how to mark up?
← Previous message | Next message →

Good points Glen.

What's the best way to make it easy to move around pages that contain
non-modal dialogs that may be quite lengthy, and to give screenreader
users the best chance of understanding where abouts they are on the
page and how to quickly move to somewhere else?

As an advanced screenreader user, I have all sorts of tricks that I
use to move around text. But some of our candidates are children, and
we want to make their experience of taking a test as easy and
stress-free as possible.

Cheers, Isabel

On 21/06/2019, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Yes, I understand the constraint of being limited to one tab in the browser
> but I wanted to toss out the other options in case someone else was
> implementing something similar but didn't have that constraint.
>
> While a dialog is often considered a modal thing, I don't think we should
> be that restrictive. Perhaps I've been a software engineer for too many
> decades but I don't limit myself in thinking that a dialog must be modal.
> Non-modals can be very helpful in appropriate situations. I think the key
> is to make it easy to move between all the non-modals and the main page.
> > > > >

From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Fri, Jun 21 2019 10:57AM
Subject: Re: Document within a document: how to mark up?
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I didn't not try to comprehend your entire design, but except for the fact that support is a bit limited, could a flow-to type ARIA make sense in this situation?
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-flowto

From: Isabel Holdsworth
Date: Mon, Jun 24 2019 6:12AM
Subject: Re: Document within a document: how to mark up?
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I don't know how much support there is in AT for aria-flowto, and I
don't want to suggest a fix that has limited support and that users
may not understand.
There's precious little documentation out there for this property.
Does anyone know how well (or if at all) it's supported these days?
Cheers for the idea though.

On 21/06/2019, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I didn't not try to comprehend your entire design, but except for the fact
> that support is a bit limited, could a flow-to type ARIA make sense in this
> situation?
> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-flowto
>
>
> > > > >