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Thread: PDf Table with one column "artifacted"
Number of posts in this thread: 5 (In chronological order)
From: Alan Zaitchik
Date: Thu, Oct 24 2019 12:29PM
Subject: PDf Table with one column "artifacted"
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I am working on a wide PDF table of 16 columns that is broken into two
tables of 8 columns so that it can be printed in hardcopy form across a
page that is then folded down the middle, thus forming a booklet. Each pair
of two facing pages thus present the two halves of a table. (I hope this
makes sense.) Users can opt for a digital version of the booklet, and users
with vision disabilities indeed do so; they can use AT to access the
tables, but because each table is implemented as two separate tables (one
on the left-side page with the first 8 columns and one on the right-side
page with the remaining 8 columns) the row headers from the left-side table
do not apply to the table on the facing right-side page. These row headers
are far two wordy to bear literal reproduction on the right-side page --
and anyway the customer wants to maintain the current visual appearance of
the two tables as being a single table (with a fold in the middle).
I tried creating a single table with a white-space (borderless) column down
the middle, so that the physical fold would be in the middle of the
white-space column. This sort of works, although the screen readers get a
bit confused when the user steps into an empty "fold cell". (An SR
basically announces "blank". Playing with ALT text on the cells didn't
really help much.) What I wanted to do was "artifact" the entire fold
column so that screen readers would ignore it altogether. Then the user
would navigate to next and previous cells skipping over the artifacted
"fold cell". But I find that although the tags make it clear we have a
single table the mere presence of this artifacted column in the middle
makes the screen reader see 2 tables, not 1. It actually says that there
are 2 tables of 8 columns, not 1 table of 17. The artifacted "fold column"
is interpreted as the table boundary of each table, for some reason! So
this is a failure.
Has anyone successfully created a table with a column down the middle set
to artifact, so a screen reader would just ignore it but still see a single
table?
Thanks
A
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From: Heather Mariger
Date: Thu, Oct 24 2019 12:33PM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] PDf Table with one column "artifacted"
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If people are accessing it electronically, could you have a link to a
webpage with the full table in addition to the printed paginated one? Then
people have the option of whichever works best for them.
Thanks,
H.
*Heather Mariger*
*Digital Accessibility Advocate*
*Center for Academic Innovation*
*Chemeketa Community College*
*4000 Lancaster Drive NE - 9/126A*
*Salem, OR 97305*
503.589.7832
*****************
*Diversity is being invited to the party; inclusion is being asked to
dance. *
Verna Myers, author and speaker
On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 11:29 AM Alan Zaitchik < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> I am working on a wide PDF table of 16 columns that is broken into two
> tables of 8 columns so that it can be printed in hardcopy form across a
> page that is then folded down the middle, thus forming a booklet. Each pair
> of two facing pages thus present the two halves of a table. (I hope this
> makes sense.) Users can opt for a digital version of the booklet, and users
> with vision disabilities indeed do so; they can use AT to access the
> tables, but because each table is implemented as two separate tables (one
> on the left-side page with the first 8 columns and one on the right-side
> page with the remaining 8 columns) the row headers from the left-side table
> do not apply to the table on the facing right-side page. These row headers
> are far two wordy to bear literal reproduction on the right-side page --
> and anyway the customer wants to maintain the current visual appearance of
> the two tables as being a single table (with a fold in the middle).
> I tried creating a single table with a white-space (borderless) column down
> the middle, so that the physical fold would be in the middle of the
> white-space column. This sort of works, although the screen readers get a
> bit confused when the user steps into an empty "fold cell". (An SR
> basically announces "blank". Playing with ALT text on the cells didn't
> really help much.) What I wanted to do was "artifact" the entire fold
> column so that screen readers would ignore it altogether. Then the user
> would navigate to next and previous cells skipping over the artifacted
> "fold cell". But I find that although the tags make it clear we have a
> single table the mere presence of this artifacted column in the middle
> makes the screen reader see 2 tables, not 1. It actually says that there
> are 2 tables of 8 columns, not 1 table of 17. The artifacted "fold column"
> is interpreted as the table boundary of each table, for some reason! So
> this is a failure.
>
> Has anyone successfully created a table with a column down the middle set
> to artifact, so a screen reader would just ignore it but still see a single
> table?
>
> Thanks
> A
>
> <
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> > > > >
From: Joseph Sherman
Date: Thu, Oct 24 2019 12:41PM
Subject: Re: PDf Table with one column "artifacted"
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When you artifact the middle column, does it create two Tables in the Tag tree? That may be what the screen reader is picking up. You might be able to fix this by moving the row tags from the "second" table into the first table to make one table in the Tags tree?
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Alan Zaitchik
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 2:29 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] PDf Table with one column "artifacted"
I am working on a wide PDF table of 16 columns that is broken into two tables of 8 columns so that it can be printed in hardcopy form across a page that is then folded down the middle, thus forming a booklet. Each pair of two facing pages thus present the two halves of a table. (I hope this makes sense.) Users can opt for a digital version of the booklet, and users with vision disabilities indeed do so; they can use AT to access the tables, but because each table is implemented as two separate tables (one on the left-side page with the first 8 columns and one on the right-side page with the remaining 8 columns) the row headers from the left-side table do not apply to the table on the facing right-side page. These row headers are far two wordy to bear literal reproduction on the right-side page -- and anyway the customer wants to maintain the current visual appearance of the two tables as being a single table (with a fold in the middle).
I tried creating a single table with a white-space (borderless) column down the middle, so that the physical fold would be in the middle of the white-space column. This sort of works, although the screen readers get a bit confused when the user steps into an empty "fold cell". (An SR basically announces "blank". Playing with ALT text on the cells didn't really help much.) What I wanted to do was "artifact" the entire fold column so that screen readers would ignore it altogether. Then the user would navigate to next and previous cells skipping over the artifacted "fold cell". But I find that although the tags make it clear we have a single table the mere presence of this artifacted column in the middle makes the screen reader see 2 tables, not 1. It actually says that there are 2 tables of 8 columns, not 1 table of 17. The artifacted "fold column"
is interpreted as the table boundary of each table, for some reason! So this is a failure.
Has anyone successfully created a table with a column down the middle set to artifact, so a screen reader would just ignore it but still see a single table?
Thanks
A
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Virus-free.
www.avast.com
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From: Duff Johnson
Date: Thu, Oct 24 2019 12:42PM
Subject: Re: PDf Table with one column "artifacted"
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Hi Alan,
Why not simply keep your two tables in the authoring tool but merge the two tables in the tags tree?
Duff.
> On Oct 24, 2019, at 14:29, Alan Zaitchik < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> I am working on a wide PDF table of 16 columns that is broken into two
> tables of 8 columns so that it can be printed in hardcopy form across a
> page that is then folded down the middle, thus forming a booklet. Each pair
> of two facing pages thus present the two halves of a table. (I hope this
> makes sense.) Users can opt for a digital version of the booklet, and users
> with vision disabilities indeed do so; they can use AT to access the
> tables, but because each table is implemented as two separate tables (one
> on the left-side page with the first 8 columns and one on the right-side
> page with the remaining 8 columns) the row headers from the left-side table
> do not apply to the table on the facing right-side page. These row headers
> are far two wordy to bear literal reproduction on the right-side page --
> and anyway the customer wants to maintain the current visual appearance of
> the two tables as being a single table (with a fold in the middle).
> I tried creating a single table with a white-space (borderless) column down
> the middle, so that the physical fold would be in the middle of the
> white-space column. This sort of works, although the screen readers get a
> bit confused when the user steps into an empty "fold cell". (An SR
> basically announces "blank". Playing with ALT text on the cells didn't
> really help much.) What I wanted to do was "artifact" the entire fold
> column so that screen readers would ignore it altogether. Then the user
> would navigate to next and previous cells skipping over the artifacted
> "fold cell". But I find that although the tags make it clear we have a
> single table the mere presence of this artifacted column in the middle
> makes the screen reader see 2 tables, not 1. It actually says that there
> are 2 tables of 8 columns, not 1 table of 17. The artifacted "fold column"
> is interpreted as the table boundary of each table, for some reason! So
> this is a failure.
>
> Has anyone successfully created a table with a column down the middle set
> to artifact, so a screen reader would just ignore it but still see a single
> table?
>
> Thanks
> A
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
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> > > >
From: Philip Kiff
Date: Thu, Oct 24 2019 2:48PM
Subject: Re: PDf Table with one column "artifacted"
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Following on Joseph's comment here, I think this is very likely what is
happening.
I wonder how you are "artifacting" that fold column? Some methods work
better than others depending on the context. I would not try to remove
these cells using the TURO (Touch Up Reading Order) tool, nor would I do
it using the Acrobat Table Editor. I would recommend making this change
directly in the Tag tree. To remove that column, you want to actually
*delete* the one empty TD tag nested in each TR in the single large
table in the Tag Tree view.
This assumes that the table is well-formed as a single table to begin
with - which it might not be! A well-formed table with only one set of
headers, should have the same number of TD tags within each TR. When you
are done deleting the column using my method, every TR in the table
would simply have one less TD in it.
And all your TR's should be nested one-level deep inside one single
Table tag.
Phil.
On 2019-10-24 14:41, Joseph Sherman wrote:
> When you artifact the middle column, does it create two Tables in the Tag tree? That may be what the screen reader is picking up. You might be able to fix this by moving the row tags from the "second" table into the first table to make one table in the Tags tree?
>
>
> Joseph
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Alan Zaitchik
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 2:29 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] PDf Table with one column "artifacted"
>
> I am working on a wide PDF table of 16 columns that is broken into two tables of 8 columns so that it can be printed in hardcopy form across a page that is then folded down the middle, thus forming a booklet. Each pair of two facing pages thus present the two halves of a table. (I hope this makes sense.) Users can opt for a digital version of the booklet, and users with vision disabilities indeed do so; they can use AT to access the tables, but because each table is implemented as two separate tables (one on the left-side page with the first 8 columns and one on the right-side page with the remaining 8 columns) the row headers from the left-side table do not apply to the table on the facing right-side page. These row headers are far two wordy to bear literal reproduction on the right-side page -- and anyway the customer wants to maintain the current visual appearance of the two tables as being a single table (with a fold in the middle).
> I tried creating a single table with a white-space (borderless) column down the middle, so that the physical fold would be in the middle of the white-space column. This sort of works, although the screen readers get a bit confused when the user steps into an empty "fold cell". (An SR basically announces "blank". Playing with ALT text on the cells didn't really help much.) What I wanted to do was "artifact" the entire fold column so that screen readers would ignore it altogether. Then the user would navigate to next and previous cells skipping over the artifacted "fold cell". But I find that although the tags make it clear we have a single table the mere presence of this artifacted column in the middle makes the screen reader see 2 tables, not 1. It actually says that there are 2 tables of 8 columns, not 1 table of 17. The artifacted "fold column"
> is interpreted as the table boundary of each table, for some reason! So this is a failure.
>
> Has anyone successfully created a table with a column down the middle set to artifact, so a screen reader would just ignore it but still see a single table?
>
> Thanks
> A