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Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)

From: Jim Homme
Date: Tue, Mar 31 2020 1:29PM
Subject: Hyperlinks Not Underlined Question
No previous message | Next message →

Hi,
I want to see if my understanding of SC 1.4.1, 1.4.3, and 1.4.11 is correct in this area. My understanding is that when neither the mouse nor the keyboard is pointing to a link that someone with color blindness must be able to tell that it is a link. Also, the recommended way to solve this most of the time is to recommend that the developer allow the browser to underline the link.

In the page I'm looking at, some links go to other pages. Some drop menus down. Does this make any difference?

I have not inspected the code yet, so I do not know if they are anchors.

Thanks.

Jim


==========
Jim Homme
Digital Accessibility
Bender Consulting Services
412-787-8567
https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions

From: glen walker
Date: Tue, Mar 31 2020 2:02PM
Subject: Re: Hyperlinks Not Underlined Question
← Previous message | Next message →

--00000000000076488805a22c0bad
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

1.4.11 usually does not come into play because that's for non-text. Most
links are text but I suppose if you had a graphical link, it might apply.

If a link is embedded in a paragraph and the link text is a different color
than the text paragraph *and* you have underlines turned off, that would be
a problem. G183 regarding 1.4.1 talks about this situation but says the
link text must have at least a 3:1 difference from the paragraph text (so
that most people can perceive there's a difference) **and* *there must be
another visual clue when the link receives keyboard or mouse focus.

If the link text is bold and the paragraph text is not, then technically
the link text and the paragraph text can be the same color and underlines
can be turned off and it would pass 1.4.1 (because color is not being used
for meaning - a font style (bold) is being used).

The link text could be a different color from the paragraph text and only
have a 1.5:1 contrast difference but if it were also bold (or italic or
some other non-color difference), it would be ok. (Which is pretty much
what I just said in the previous paragraph but a slightly different
situation.)

There is nothing that requires links to have underlines. That's just the
standard that has been around for 20+ years.

If the links are for navigating or for opening menus, they don't
necessarily need underlines. It might be understandable from the context
what their behavior is.

In your specific case, it sounds like there are a group of links in a
"menu" and some of the links are for navigation and others are for
dropdowns. Does there need to be a distinction? From a visual
perspective, there should be but it might not be required. From an aria
perspective, there should be too.

As an example, I was on Lego.com the other day. The main menu (themes,
shop by, interests) has both dropdown menus and direct navigation links.
The dropdown menus have a visual indicator (down arrow) and the direct
links do not. The dropdown menus have aria-haspopup so that the screen
reader will announce "submenu" but the direct links do not.

(Side note, when using aria-haspopup or menu roles, you are committing to
using arrow navigation to traverse the menu. Personally, I would have used
aria-expanded for the dropdowns and let the user use the tab key for
navigating through the items.)

[image: image.png]
(Screenshot of menu. Yellow background and black text. Dropdown menus
have a down arrow next to them. Direct links do not.)

Anyway, if the dropdowns did not have the down arrow but they had aria
properties to indicate they're dropdowns, that would be an advantage for
the screen reader user and a disadvantage to the sighted user. I would
consider that a poor design.




On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 1:30 PM Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi,
> I want to see if my understanding of SC 1.4.1, 1.4.3, and 1.4.11 is
> correct in this area. My understanding is that when neither the mouse nor
> the keyboard is pointing to a link that someone with color blindness must
> be able to tell that it is a link. Also, the recommended way to solve this
> most of the time is to recommend that the developer allow the browser to
> underline the link.
>
> In the page I'm looking at, some links go to other pages. Some drop menus
> down. Does this make any difference?
>
> I have not inspected the code yet, so I do not know if they are anchors.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
>
> ==========
> Jim Homme
> Digital Accessibility
> Bender Consulting Services
> 412-787-8567
>
> https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
>
>
> > > > >

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--00000000000076488805a22c0bad--

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Tue, Mar 31 2020 6:37PM
Subject: Re: Hyperlinks Not Underlined Question
← Previous message | Next message →

Basically SC 1.4.3 requires that users can tell links from surrounding
plain text (i.e. can realize that the piece of text inside the link is
actionable, in this case clickable.
The exception is if the color of the link text has a contrast of 3 to
1 with the color of surrounding text and that both link text and
surrounding text have a contrast ratio of 4.5:1 with the background.
My understanding is that there are only a handful of color
combinations that would meet both of these requirements.
You can use formatting or icons to distinguish the link text from
surrounding text, or just leave the damn underline, (fortunately, in
my organization we can set some of our own requirements and we do not
allow removing the underline).
AS a wise man once said, underlines are beautiful
https://adrianroselli.com/2019/01/underlines-are-beautiful.html



On 3/31/20, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> 1.4.11 usually does not come into play because that's for non-text. Most
> links are text but I suppose if you had a graphical link, it might apply.
>
> If a link is embedded in a paragraph and the link text is a different color
> than the text paragraph *and* you have underlines turned off, that would be
> a problem. G183 regarding 1.4.1 talks about this situation but says the
> link text must have at least a 3:1 difference from the paragraph text (so
> that most people can perceive there's a difference) **and* *there must be
> another visual clue when the link receives keyboard or mouse focus.
>
> If the link text is bold and the paragraph text is not, then technically
> the link text and the paragraph text can be the same color and underlines
> can be turned off and it would pass 1.4.1 (because color is not being used
> for meaning - a font style (bold) is being used).
>
> The link text could be a different color from the paragraph text and only
> have a 1.5:1 contrast difference but if it were also bold (or italic or
> some other non-color difference), it would be ok. (Which is pretty much
> what I just said in the previous paragraph but a slightly different
> situation.)
>
> There is nothing that requires links to have underlines. That's just the
> standard that has been around for 20+ years.
>
> If the links are for navigating or for opening menus, they don't
> necessarily need underlines. It might be understandable from the context
> what their behavior is.
>
> In your specific case, it sounds like there are a group of links in a
> "menu" and some of the links are for navigation and others are for
> dropdowns. Does there need to be a distinction? From a visual
> perspective, there should be but it might not be required. From an aria
> perspective, there should be too.
>
> As an example, I was on Lego.com the other day. The main menu (themes,
> shop by, interests) has both dropdown menus and direct navigation links.
> The dropdown menus have a visual indicator (down arrow) and the direct
> links do not. The dropdown menus have aria-haspopup so that the screen
> reader will announce "submenu" but the direct links do not.
>
> (Side note, when using aria-haspopup or menu roles, you are committing to
> using arrow navigation to traverse the menu. Personally, I would have used
> aria-expanded for the dropdowns and let the user use the tab key for
> navigating through the items.)
>
> [image: image.png]
> (Screenshot of menu. Yellow background and black text. Dropdown menus
> have a down arrow next to them. Direct links do not.)
>
> Anyway, if the dropdowns did not have the down arrow but they had aria
> properties to indicate they're dropdowns, that would be an advantage for
> the screen reader user and a disadvantage to the sighted user. I would
> consider that a poor design.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 1:30 PM Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> I want to see if my understanding of SC 1.4.1, 1.4.3, and 1.4.11 is
>> correct in this area. My understanding is that when neither the mouse nor
>> the keyboard is pointing to a link that someone with color blindness must
>> be able to tell that it is a link. Also, the recommended way to solve
>> this
>> most of the time is to recommend that the developer allow the browser to
>> underline the link.
>>
>> In the page I'm looking at, some links go to other pages. Some drop menus
>> down. Does this make any difference?
>>
>> I have not inspected the code yet, so I do not know if they are anchors.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> Jim Homme
>> Digital Accessibility
>> Bender Consulting Services
>> 412-787-8567
>>
>> https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
>>
>>
>> >> >> >> >>
>


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Jim Homme
Date: Wed, Apr 01 2020 8:10AM
Subject: Re: Hyperlinks Not Underlined Question
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi,
In this case, the links are the same color as the surrounding text. You can only tell they are links if you hover or focus them.

 
==========
Jim Homme
Digital Accessibility
Bender Consulting Services
412-787-8567
https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
 

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Apr 01 2020 8:12AM
Subject: Re: Hyperlinks Not Underlined Question
← Previous message | Next message →

Fail.

On 4/1/20, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi,
> In this case, the links are the same color as the surrounding text. You can
> only tell they are links if you hover or focus them.
>
>
> ==========
> Jim Homme
> Digital Accessibility
> Bender Consulting Services
> 412-787-8567
> https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
>
>
>

From: Jim Homme
Date: Wed, Apr 01 2020 8:13AM
Subject: Re: Hyperlinks Not Underlined Question
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Glen,
Is there a technique that talks about items that opening menus are cool because of positioning? I saw something about this on Webaim when looking at documentation that says that header links are OK in banners.

 
=========Jim Homme
Digital Accessibility
Bender Consulting Services
412-787-8567
https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
 

From: Marjorie Meyer
Date: Wed, Apr 01 2020 11:11AM
Subject: Re: Hyperlinks Not Underlined Question
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WebAIM has a comprehensive article on links https://webaim.org/techniques/hypertext/
and tool for testing surrounding contrast.
https://webaim.org/resources/linkcontrastchecker/

Hope this helps you.

Marjorie Meyer
Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 1, 2020, at 9:12 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Fail.
>
>> On 4/1/20, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Hi,
>> In this case, the links are the same color as the surrounding text. You can
>> only tell they are links if you hover or focus them.
>>
>>
>> =========>> Jim Homme
>> Digital Accessibility
>> Bender Consulting Services
>> 412-787-8567
>> https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
>>
>>
>>

From: glen walker
Date: Wed, Apr 01 2020 11:16AM
Subject: Re: Hyperlinks Not Underlined Question
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I think we might be talking about too many scenarios and there isn't a
single answer that covers them all. I had talked about link text embedded
in a paragraph and the requirements for that and then talked about links in
a menu where you might have two types of links (submenus and direct links).

Birkir also talked about links embedded in paragraphs.

But your latest question seems to be about links by themselves used as a
menu (but not about submenus and direct links) but I'm not following what
you're asking for.

Are you asking if menu links need sufficient contrast, and if so, contrast
with what? Link text is no different than other text when it comes to
contrast. The link text must be 4.5:1 compared to the background (ignoring
"large" text for the moment and ignoring if the link text is next to
paragraph text).

Are you asking if menu links need underlines? No, they don't. They should
be contained in a <nav> element and there should be some visual clue that
they're a menu. It might be a subtle visual clue such as the position of
the menu relative to the rest of the page. The reference to WebAIM might
have been an article or blog that talked about WebAIM's main menu
(Services, Articles, Resources, Community) and the fact that it doesn't
have underlines. I can't remember where I saw that.

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 8:13 AM Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Glen,
> Is there a technique that talks about items that opening menus are cool
> because of positioning? I saw something about this on Webaim when looking
> at documentation that says that header links are OK in banners.
>
>
> ==========
> Jim Homme
> Digital Accessibility
> Bender Consulting Services
> 412-787-8567
>
> https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
>
>
>

From: Jim Homme
Date: Fri, Apr 03 2020 2:31PM
Subject: Re: Hyperlinks Not Underlined Question
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Hi,
I'm talking about links in paragraphs. The links are not underlined and the text and background of the links is the same as the text and background of the paragraphs unless you tab to or hover on them.

 
==========
Jim Homme
Digital Accessibility
Bender Consulting Services
412-787-8567
https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
 

From: Jim Homme
Date: Fri, Apr 03 2020 2:33PM
Subject: Re: Hyperlinks Not Underlined Question
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Hi,
What SC?

 
==========
Jim Homme
Digital Accessibility
Bender Consulting Services
412-787-8567
https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
 

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Fri, Apr 03 2020 4:07PM
Subject: Re: Hyperlinks Not Underlined Question
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On 03/04/2020 21:31, Jim Homme wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm talking about links in paragraphs. The links are not underlined and the text and background of the links is the same as the text and background of the paragraphs unless you tab to or hover on them.


Paradoxically, if you have links that are visually completely
indistinguishable from static text inside a passage of text (i.e. use
the same foreground color and no other distinguishing visual
characteristics), this doesn't currently fail any WCAG SC (e.g. doesn't
fail 1.4.1 use of color, as color is not used to distinguish the link).

This sort of gap is something that 2.2 may attempt to fix (partially at
least), requiring some form of visual identification for actionable
controls/links.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Jeremy Echols
Date: Fri, Apr 03 2020 4:24PM
Subject: Re: Hyperlinks Not Underlined Question
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It seems like this creates a usability issue for everybody equally. Will 2.2 address problems that make a page tougher to use even if it's tougher for all people?

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Fri, Apr 03 2020 5:00PM
Subject: Re: Hyperlinks Not Underlined Question
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On 03/04/2020 23:24, Jeremy Echols wrote:
> It seems like this creates a usability issue for everybody equally. Will 2.2 address problems that make a page tougher to use even if it's tougher for all people?

There's a lot being pushed/discussed for the cognitive accessibility
side, which will overlap with general usability (but admittedly, it's a
fine line to walk).

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke