WebAIM - Web Accessibility In Mind

E-mail List Archives

Re: Wai Aria how useful?

for

From: Steven Faulkner
Date: Jul 27, 2010 7:54AM

Hi Michael,

>Why would you consider user testing with a screen reader that is not yet
widely used to be useful?

according to the latest webaim screen reader survey NVDA is commonly used by
25% of respondents.

Also it is a screen reader that is much more widley available than other
screen readers (localized into 20+ languages) and is free.

regards
steve
On 27 July 2010 14:36, < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Why would you consider user testing with a screen reader that is not yet
> widely used to be useful? I agree that NVDA has better support for ARIA at
> this time than the main stream screen readers. But using NVDA for user
> testing for visually impaired users would be like relying on Arora as your
> browser for user testing for non-disabled users.
>
> Mike Moore
> (512) 424-4159
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
> <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Birkir Rúnar Gunnarsson
> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 5:21 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Wai Aria how useful?
>
> This is true, and this is why I think usability testing, in general,
> should be done with NVDA rather than with the commercial screen
> readers, or, at least, alongside the major screen readers.
> I am very impressed with the NVDA performance, especially in this area.
> Cheers
> -B
>
> On 7/26/10, Patrick H. Lauke < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > also worth mentioning yahoo!'s YUI work there
> >
> > --
> > Patrick H. Lauke
> >
> >
> > On 26 Jul 2010, at 21:39, "Hoffman, Allen" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> >
> >> Just curious:
> >> Dojo and Jquery are the two always named sets of building blocks which
> >> include ARIA.
> >> Of the set of similar building blocks, is this 2% 50% or what?
> >> This proliferation of such building block sets which may or may not
> >> include easy use of accessibility features seems to be a real challenge
> to
> >> me.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Birkir Rúnar Gunnarsson [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> >> Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 6:43 PM
> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Wai Aria how useful?
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >> Thanks very much for all the info.
> >> Like I said I am fairly new to all of this and it appears I
> >> misunderstood a few things, but I am all too happy to be corrected and
> >> will start with the pointers in your post for further research.
> >> The screen reader ownership survey surprises me though, it may be
> >> location specific, because I know the situation in a few countries in
> >> Europe and the user SR ownership seems to differ from this survey, so
> >> it is a good thing.
> >> I will post back with questions/comments after I update my knowledge
> >> some. *grin*
> >> Cheers
> >> -B
> >>
> >> On 7/22/10, Steven Faulkner < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >>> hi birkir,
> >>>
> >>> you wrote:
> >>> "You definitely cannot expect your users to be so up-to-date given the
> >>> price
> >>> of upgrades..."
> >>>
> >>> The webaim screen readers survey differs from your conclusion
> >>>
> >>> "The vast majority of respondents updated their primary screen reader
> >>> within
> >>> the previous year."
> >>> http://www.webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey2/#demographics
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> you wrote:
> >>> "Another issue is clashes between screen reader key strokes while
> >>> navigating a web page and assigned Aria keyboard shortcuts. "
> >>>
> >>> There are no "ARIA keyboard shortcuts" as such:
> >>> The set of keyboard shortcuts defined for use in Google Reader has
> >>> NOTHING
> >>> to do with ARIA.
> >>>
> >>> What ARIA promotes is the implementation of keyboard interactions for
> >>> widgets that are the same or similar to those of controls in desktop
> >>> software applications
> >>>
> >>> "The model for keyboard support for Web 2.0 widgets are graphical user
> >>>> interface (GUI) operating systems like Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X;
> and
> >>>> other desktop operating systems like GNOME and GTK. "
> >>>
> >>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#kbd_generalnav
> >>>
> >>> There is an ongoing effort to specify keyboard keystrokes to be used
> for
> >>> web
> >>> based controls:
> >>> http://dev.aol.com/dhtml_style_guide
> >>>
> >>> These keyboard interaction best practices are being implemented in
> >>> javascript UI libraries such as DOJO and JQUERY so that users can rely
> >>> upon
> >>> the same or similar keystrokes being usable on for example a 'button'
> >>> regardless of whether its a native HTML button <button> or a button
> built
> >>> from divs and spans with added script to provide the user interaction.
> >>>
> >>>> Another issue is clashes between screen reader key strokes while
> >>>> navigating a web page and assigned Aria keyboard shortcuts. The
> >>>> application element is supposed to turn off screen reader key
> >>>> functionality but this does not always seem to work properly
> >>>
> >>> There is no clash per se, when in document reading mode, most key
> strokes
> >>> are consumed by the AT, this is why most windows based AT have a
> special
> >>> mode for interacting with native controls on web pages, which allows
> >>> keystrokes to be passed to the browser rather than consumed by the AT.
> >>> ARIA
> >>> extends this method to the custom controls built using a combination of
> >>> HTML/scripting and CSS.
> >>>
> >>> The use of role="application" on an element indicates to AT that
> support
> >>> it
> >>> they should switch from document to application mode (so users can
> >>> interact
> >>> with controls using the keyboard). It is true that it sometimes does
> not
> >>> work, but i would suggest it is no more or less buggy than many of the
> >>> other
> >>> features in popular commercial screen readers.
> >>>
> >>> you wrote:
> >>> "/basically, yopu have to expect not all users can use Aria and even
> >>> for those who can, a lot of thought needs to go in to the key mapping
> >>> and you must ensure that the user can access a simple keyboard help
> >>> overview in a convenient format somehow (perhaps have it downloadable
> >>> as a .txt file or plain html page that opens in a new window or tab)."
> >>>
> >>> again what you are talking about has nothing to do with ARIA, in fact
> it
> >>> is
> >>> the opposite:
> >>> The use of ARIA on custom controls provides users with information
> about
> >>> the
> >>> role/state and properties of the control which typically results in the
> >>> AT
> >>> providing hints about how to interact with the control.
> >>>
> >>> Tests and examples of what AT report when ARIA roles are encountered:
> >>> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/aria-tests/user-input-widgets.html
> >>> note these results are from 18 months ago.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>> Stevef
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 2010/7/22 Birkir Rúnar Gunnarsson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >>>
> >>>> There are a few inherent problems with Aria.
> >>>> To use it I believe that you need Firefox 3.5 or newer, IE8. As for
> >>>> screen readers I think it is Jaws 10 and above, Window Eyes 7 and
> >>>
> >>> above and Hal/Dolphin 11.2 and above (NVDA does a good job of
> >>>> recognizing Aria).
> >>>> You definitely cannot expect your users to be so up-to-date given the
> >>>> price of upgrades and relatively lousy set of improvements at least in
> >>>> Jaws lately (no bashing intended, Ijust feel that upgrades from Jaws 9
> >>>> have hardly been worth it).
> >>>> Another issue is clashes between screen reader key strokes while
> >>>> navigating a web page and assigned Aria keyboard shortcuts. The
> >>>> application element is supposed to turn off screen reader key
> >>>> functionality but this does not always seem to work properly (I will
> >>>> admit I lack expertees in this area, I am looking at it but this was
> >>>> discussed at length at the ICCHP conference I just attended).
> >>>> Thus a screen reader user must pass every keysroke to an Aria page
> >>>> through the screen reader by using the designed pass through key, and
> >>>> that is a relatively advanced operation (or rather, having the user
> >>>> recognize the need to do this is fairly advanced, one has to
> >>>> understand what type of page is being encounterred and what that means
> >>>> for navigation).
> >>>> Even if both of these issues are resoled and you have a user with
> >>>> compatible SR and browser and the switching off works, there is still
> >>>> a worrying lack of standards regarding keyboard mapping of aria
> >>>> elements, which means the user has to continually return to some type
> >>>> of on page help to see what keystrokes are required for what action
> >>>> (See GoogleReader as an example).
> >>>> These help messages do not (perhaps cannot) appear in a virtual
> >>>> buffer, meaning it is hard to copy them and recall them in a text
> >>>> document, so you have to kepp clicking on some type of help / overview
> >>>> on the page that tells you the functionality of each key stroke.
> >>>> There is a brilliant video demo about this, I will post it if I manage
> >>>> to dig it up from my conference lecture notes, which I will have time
> >>>> for over the weekend.
> >>>> /basically, yopu have to expect not all users can use Aria and even
> >>>> for those who can, a lot of thought needs to go in to the key mapping
> >>>> and you must ensure that the user can access a simple keyboard help
> >>>> overview in a convenient format somehow (perhaps have it downloadable
> >>>> as a .txt file or plain html page that opens in a new window or tab).
> >>>> Hope some of these thoughts help, plesae keep us updated and I will
> >>>> post back once I have sorted out my notes.
> >>>> Cheers
> >>>> -B
> >>>>
> >>>> On 7/22/10, Seth Kane < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >>>>> I have had little to no luck with ARIA unless you have the latest and
> >>>> great
> >>>>> version of both browsers and screen readers. It isn't ready for the
> >>>> lowest
> >>>>> common denominator just yet. Maybe HTML5 will be better.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Seth Kane
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of
> >>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 2:13 PM
> >>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Wai Aria how useful?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nancy Johnson wrote:
> >>>>>> How useful is WAI Aria to the average screen reader user who may not
> >>>>>> be
> >>>>>> technically inclined?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It depends on what version of a screenreader and browser they
> >>>>> have. With JAWS 11 + Firefox 3, for example, live regions get
> >>>>> announced in ways that some people find helpful (depending on how
> >>>>> well they have encoded).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Does this also help the mobility impaired user who is not visually
> >>>>>> impaired?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have found that there are circumstances in which ARIA
> >>>>> navigation changes the way the wonderful Firefox add-on
> >>>>> Mouseless Browsing interacts with a webpage in a way that gives
> >>>>> me more control over Ajax drop-down menus. I haven't narrowed it
> >>>>> down to exactly what features make things better, but I've been
> >>>>> meaning to.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -deborah
> >>>>>