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Re: A List of Form Elements?

for

From: Steve Green
Date: Mar 15, 2012 8:03PM

A <fieldset> element is the correct one for grouping radio buttons or
checkboxes. If that doesn't allow you to target the elements specifically
enough, use 'class' and 'id' attributes. It is not good practice to put in
redundant elements just to hang visual styles on, but if you must then it's
best to use semantically neutral ones like <div>.

To my mind lists are definitely wrong in your case, and it's got nothing to
do with screen readers or any other assistive technology. Someone else
(Patrick Lauke?) once suggested that if you believe that a form is a list of
form controls, then presumably you believe that a page is a list of
paragraphs and maybe even that a paragraph is a list of words (ordered lists
of course, because the sequence is important).

Steve.

-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
[mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Lewis, Sunshine
T.
Sent: 15 March 2012 21:07
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] A List of Form Elements?

Thank you for the feedback.

Radio buttons are grouped semantically but it's not a relationship that
translates to visual structure (I can't target the input and matching label
in my stylesheet).

So what is the appropriate markup for grouping a radio button and label to
apply visual structure (with or without developer styles)? Paragraphs? Divs?
Neither of those seem correct if you think solely in terms of describing the
structure of the content. Same for span and div since those offer no
additional information. Maybe instead of grouping the two pieces they
should just get a <br>.

It also sounds like some of this comes down to personal preference for
screen reader users. (correct me if I'm wrong) Would lists be ok
semantically if not for the overhead?

Thanks for indulging me. It's difficult to have these conversations with
your family :D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan E. Benson [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 5:53 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] A List of Form Elements?

I'll also add that if radio/checkboxes are correctly grouped together via
the name attribute, a screen reader will say how many are in the group.

--
Ryan E. Benson



On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
wrote:
> Yes it does - even more so. Radio buttons are already semantically
> grouped by means of their attributes, so adding list markup is even
> less appropriate (if less than zero is possible) than it is for
> textboxes. <form> and <fieldset> elements are all that is needed.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Lewis,
> Sunshine T.
> Sent: 14 March 2012 17:37
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] A List of Form Elements?
>
> Does the dislike of lists for forms also apply to lists for checkboxes
> and radio buttons?
> <fieldset><legend>
> <ul>
> <li><input ></li>
> <li><input ></li>
> </ul>
> </fieldset>
>
> Markup seems semantically appropriate to me but I'm curious if that
> would introduce the same issues?
>
>
>
>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Green [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 1:33 PM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] A List of Form Elements?
>
> I am also totally opposed to the use of lists for forms. It's
> semantically incorrect and it's an appalling user experience for
> screen reader users - the additional verbiage decreases
> comprehensibility rather than increasing it.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Jennifer
> Sutton
> Sent: 13 March 2012 00:43
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] A List of Form Elements?
>
> I'm not a fan of list-items in forms, either. I've rarely seen it done
> and have often argued against it.  When I'm in a form, I find the
> indication of list-items distracting and disorienting from the task at
> hand.  Honestly, it just feels semantically wrong to me.
>
> Jennifer
>
> At 04:18 PM 3/12/2012, you wrote:
>>I'm not a fan of lists to differentiate form items. You adequately
>>note
>
>>the disadvantages, which I think outweigh any perceived benefits.
>>In most cases, the form is navigated from form control to form control
>>anyway (i.e., hitting the Tab key), so the only real advantage (that
>>the number of items is identified) often doesn't occur anyway.
>>
>>The <div> markup could probably be simplified even more with <form
>>class="aform"> <div>...<label>...<input>...</div>
>></form>
>>and
>>.aform div { }
>>to define the necessary styling.
>>
>>Jared Smith
>>WebAIM.org
>>