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Re: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?

for

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Jun 28, 2012 3:16AM

Hi Bryan,

provided test page:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/377471/tests/labelledby-tabindex.html

for the tests without tabindex-1 NVDA does not read the full label or
description

you wrote:

"The concept of requiring tabindex=-1 on all elements referenced by
aria-labelledby/aria- describedby sounds very similar to saying that the
only
way to make explicit form field labels is to include tabindex=-1 on all
Label elements, which isn't making sense to me."

don't understand this comment. The concept is one documented by microsoft.
tabindex is only required on elements that are not defined as accessible
elements in IE, that is why i suggest using a label element as it does not
require tabindex.

regards
Stevef



On 28 June 2012 09:03, Bryan Garaventa < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> "its not so much a bug as a constraint due to IE's accessibility
> architecture which they have documented it"
>
> True, and it looks like the screen readers have compensated for this by
> processing the aria-labelledby and aria-describedby attributes correctly.
> Can you give me examples of which screen readers these attributes are not
> working correctly on in IE? This would help.
>
> "and the user will not hear the label or description"
>
> This is what's confusing me, because I am hearing descriptions on all of
my
> implementations using IE8 and 9 with JAWS12 and 13, and even in NVDA in
IE 8
> and 9 (though NVDA is programmed to work better in Firefox). I would
> definitely notice if they were not working in IE.
>
> The concept of requiring tabindex=-1 on all elements referenced by
> aria-labelledby/aria-describedby sounds very similar to saying that the
only
> way to make explicit form field labels is to include tabindex=-1 on all
> Label elements, which isn't making sense to me.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Faulkner" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
>
>
> > Hi Bryan,
> >
> >>So this would be a bug in IE would it not?
> >
> > its not so much a bug as a constraint due to IE's accessibility
> > architecture which they have documented it
> >
> >>how is this not accessible when the correct data is being conveyed?
> >
> > The correct data is not being conveyed via the accessibility API in IE.
So
> > AT that rely upon the browser to provide such information will not get
it
> > and the user will not hear the label or description.
> >
> > regards
> > SteveF
> >
> >
> > On 28 June 2012 05:02, Bryan Garaventa < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> So this would be a bug in IE would it not?
> >>
> >> And even if the screen reader is parsing the correct data in the
> >> meantime,
> >> how is this not accessible when the correct data is being conveyed?
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Steve Faulkner" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:09 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static
> >> elements?
> >>
> >>
> >> > hi bryan,
> >> >
> >> > you wrote:
> >> >
> >> > "the multiple labels appear to be reading without a problem in IE."
> >> >
> >> > Some scree readers do not rely exclusively upon the accessibility API
> >> > information being exposed for aria-labelledby and aria-describedby,
> >> > they
> >> > derive the accessible name and description directly from the DOM.
> >> > Others
> >> > do
> >> > not.
> >> >
> >> > Testing the accessible name and accessible description being exposed
> >> > via
> >> > the MSAA API using an inspect tool shows the effect of the described
> >> > constraints in IE.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > regards
> >> > Stevef
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 28 June 2012 03:16, Bryan Garaventa < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
> >> >> aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the
referenced
> >> >> elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML elements.
So
> >> >> tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p"
> >> >>
> >> >> I haven't seen this to be the case. For example, on the page at
> >> >> http://whatsock.com/modules/carousel_from_xml_module/demo.htm
> >> >> When you click the Generate Wizard from XML button, it opens a
wizard
> >> >> dialog. All of the form fields use aria-labelledby, and the first
> >> >> field
> >> >> references two IDs. Neither of the label divs have tabindex=-1, and
> >> >> the
> >> >> multiple labels appear to be reading without a problem in IE.
> >> >>
> >> >> > From: Steve Faulkner [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012 11:53 PM
> >> >> > To: Ian Yang
> >> >> > Cc: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hi Ian,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The text is not a tooltip, tooltips have particular properties
> >> >> > associated
> >> >> > with them: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#tooltip
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Note:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
> >> >> > aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the
> >> >> > referenced
> >> >> > elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML elements.
> >> >> > So
> >> >> > tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p> refer to Making Non
> >> >> > accessible
> >> >> > Elements Accessible
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > regards
> >> >> > Stevef
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On 27 June 2012 14:24, Ian Yang < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hi Steve,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Yes, the example uses aria-describedby to associate the static <
p >
> >> >> > element and the < input > field so the information will be
announced
> >> >> > when the field receives focus.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The issue which I'm trying to figure out is if adding
role="tooltip"
> >> >> > to the static < p > element has bad effects on assistive
> >> >> > technologies.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Regards,
> >> >> > Ian
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2012/6/27 Steve Faulkner < <EMAIL REMOVED> >:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Hi Ian,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I suggest its better to include the text within the label for the
> >> form
> >> >> >> field
> >> >> >> so the information will be announced when the field recieves
focus:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> examples and details here:
> >> >> >> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/mulitple-labels.html
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> regards
> >> >> >> steve
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On 27 June 2012 12:50, Ian Yang < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Hi everyone,
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Please take a look at this image (
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >>
http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/http://www.lessfussdesign.com/images/blog/form-screen-2009-08-10.gif
> >> >> >>> ) which is taken from this blog page (
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >>
http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/2010/08/using-aria-describedby-for-form-help-text/
> >> >> >>> ).
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> The image shows that there is a static description paragraph (<
p
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> element) below the password input field. In that case, is it
okay
> >> >> >>> to
> >> >> >>> add ARIA role="tooltip" to the static < p > element?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> In most web designs, tooltips are often designed as "popups"
which
> >> >> >>> are
> >> >> >>> triggered by mouse hover. However, if I understand it correctly,
> >> >> >>> "tooltip" literally means "tip of tool" and doesn't imply that a
> >> >> >>> tooltip must be a "popup" thing. So, can I add role="tooltip" to
> >> >> >>> elements which can be considered as "tip of tool", even if they
> >> >> >>> are
> >> >> >>> static elements? (Just like the example above) By doing so, I
feel
> >> >> >>> they are markup'ed more meaningfully, and we also get the
benefit
> >> >> >>> of
> >> >> >>> having styling hooks.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I'm not sure whether adding role="tooltip" to static elements
has
> >> >> >>> negative effects to assistive technologies or not. Is this idea
> >> >> >>> appropriate or inappropriate?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Kind Regards,
> >> >> >>> Ian
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> with regards
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Steve Faulkner
> >> >> >> Technical Director - TPG
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> >> >> >> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> >> >> >> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> >> >> >> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> >> >> >> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> >> >> >> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > with regards
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Steve Faulkner
> >> >> > Technical Director - TPG
> >> >> >
> >> >> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> >> >> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> >> >> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> >> >> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> >> >> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> >> >> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > with regards
> >> >
> >> > Steve Faulkner
> >> > Technical Director - TPG
> >> >
> >> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> >> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> >> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> >> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> >> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> >> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >>
> >> > >> > >> > >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > with regards
> >
> > Steve Faulkner
> > Technical Director - TPG
> >
> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> > > > > > >
> > > --
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html