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Re: Is use of <label> and title redundant?

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From: GILLENWATER, ZOE M
Date: Nov 19, 2012 8:10AM

Hi Steve,

Can you share what the bugs you found are? I've had trouble with hidden labels if the hiding method had overflow:hidden on it, but removing that got rid of all my problems. Here's the hiding CSS I've tested without problems so far:

.hidden-spoken {
position: absolute !important;
clip: rect(1px 1px 1px 1px);
clip: rect(1px, 1px, 1px, 1px);
padding:0 !important;
border:0 !important;
height: 1px !important;
width: 1px !important;
}

As I said, I'd love to hear differing opinions on this topic! I posted a thread on this issue months ago because I'm genuinely trying to figure out the pros and cons to different approaches, and I still haven't made a decision as to which will be my method of first resort.

Thanks for your help,
Zoe

Zoe Gillenwater
Web Accessibility Technical Architect
AT&T Consumer Digital Experience

o: 919-241-4083
e:   <EMAIL REMOVED>

4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703

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-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Steve Faulkner
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 9:55 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?

>Sure, but if there's another completely valid, easy way to label an
element that is not as buggy--namely, using a label!--why not use that
method?

I have encountered buggy screen reader behaviour with hidden label elements
in past. in the end you pick what you think works best.

regards
steve

On 19 November 2012 14:42, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Sure, but if there's another completely valid, easy way to label an
> element that is not as buggy--namely, using a label!--why not use that
> method?
>
> Zoe
>
> Zoe Gillenwater
> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>
> o: 919-241-4083
> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>
> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>
> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the named
> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received
> this message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention, dissemination,
> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
> <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Steve Faulkner
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:59 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>
> Hi Zoe,
>
> When a control lacks another form of explicit labelling, the title
> attribute content is mapped to the accessible name for the control. This is
> consistent across plaforms and accessibility APIs, this has been the case
> for a long time and is the standardized behaviour [1].
>
> While we should take into account the bugs in AT when newer technologies
> are used (example ARIA), we should be filing bugs against those AT/browsers
> that do not follow the standards as trying to code to take into account
> bugs in every AT that do not make use of the accessibility information
> exposed in a standardized/agreed way is a losing proposition.
>
>
> [1] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-api-map/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#calc
>
> regards
> SteveF
>
> On 19 November 2012 13:41, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> > Hi Sailesh,
> >
> > One advantage for hidden labels that I've found when testing the
> > difference between them and title attributes on form fields is that a few
> > screen reader-browser combinations will not read the title text in normal
> > reading mode, only when focused in the form field. The hidden label
> always
> > gets read in both normal and forms reading modes. This seems non-trivial
> to
> > me, as hearing label-less form fields announced would be confusing and
> > doesn't give you the information you need to be able to decide whether
> you
> > want to go into forms reading mode. Have you never seen this behavior
> with
> > title text in normal reading mode?
> >
> > I've even seen cases where not only is the title text not announced in
> > normal reading mode, but the type of form field is not announced, so you
> > have no idea anything is even there to enter forms mode for. Granted,
> this
> > has only happened to me in older screen readers, but still, it's a pretty
> > big problem. Again, this is just in normal reading mode--I've had no
> > problems with title text in forms reading mode. But because of this,
> using
> > regular old labels seems far safer in many contexts. Title text has its
> > place too, but I'm starting to think that hidden labels should be the
> > technique of first resort (apart from adding visible labels whenever
> > possible, of course!).
> >
> > I'd love to hear differing opinions on this! :-)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Zoe
> >
> > Zoe Gillenwater
> > Web Accessibility Technical Architect
> > AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
> >
> > o: 919-241-4083
> > e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >
> > 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
> >
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
> > confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
> > entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the named
> > recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received
> > this message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
> > immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
> dissemination,
> > forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
> > <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh Panchang
> > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:53 PM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >
> > As per WCAG2 techniques, title on form controls should be used when
> > visible label is not present ... i.e. when purpose of form control is
> > obvious generally to sighted users / as per UI design.
> > (If purpose is not obvious visually, then the fix is to incorporate a
> > visual text label for the benefit of all users).
> >
> > Using title in these situations mainly to convey purpose of control to
> > non-sighted users is well supported by browsers and AT, both recent
> > and legacy ones.
> > Title is also available via mouseover to some sighted users who might
> > need them.
> > I do not recommend using off-screen label: it is more work and code
> > and not available to anyone except screen reader / magnification users
> > unless CSS is turned off.
> > Sailesh Panchang
> > Deque Systems
> >
> >
> > On 11/9/12, Michael R. Burks < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > > I would like to add that we should code to the standards, not to a
> > specific
> > > type of Assistive Technology.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > Mike Burks
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > > [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Michael R.
> > Burks
> > > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 7:51 PM
> > > To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
> > > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> > >
> > > It has not been my experience that title attributes work well with
> Dragon
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > Mike Burks
> > > 919-882-1884 - Fax
> > > 919-349-6661 - Office
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > > [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Ryan E.
> > Benson
> > > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:59 PM
> > > To: <EMAIL REMOVED> ; WebAIM Discussion List
> > > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> > >
> > > Léonie Watson wrote:
> > >> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by default,
> > >> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception I
> > >> think.
> > > ZoomText (v9.5 at least) will read the title attribute instead of the
> > > label.
> > > The same goes with links with a title attribute, it reads the title
> > versus
> > > linking words.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ryan E. Benson
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Léonie Watson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > >> Angela French wrote:
> > >> " Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text
> > >> field and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input>
> > >> tag redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would
> > >> a screen reader say the word twice?"
> > >>
> > >> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by default,
> > >> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception I
> > >> think.
> > >>
> > >> Assuming the label is visible, it's worth asking what value the title
> > >> attribute brings in this case?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Léonie.
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > >> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Angela
> > >> French
> > >> Sent: 09 November 2012 18:22
> > >> To: 'WebAim Forum ( <EMAIL REMOVED> )'
> > >> Subject: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> > >>
> > >> Hello,
> > >> Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text field
> > >> and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input> tag
> > >> redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would a
> > >> screen reader say the word twice?
> > >>
> > >> Example:
> > >>
> > >> <label for="searchfield" class="offscreen"> Search</label><input
> > >> id="searchfield" type="text" title="Search">
> > >>
> > >> Thank you,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Angela French
> > >> Internet Specialist
> > >> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> > >> 360-704-4316
> > >> <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > >> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
> > >>
> > >> > > >> > > >> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > > >> > > >> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > > > > > > list
> > > messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > >
> > > > > > > list
> > > messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> > > > > > >



--
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html