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Re: Is use of <label> and title redundant?

for

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Nov 19, 2012 8:18AM

Steve,
I think I had previously expressed my concern about the logic stated in
HTML to Platform Accessibility APIs Implementation Guide.
I see that the algorithm accords a higher order to ARIA attributesand
not the native HTML elements / attributes.
This is contrary to what the Intro to ARIA advises : use ARIA only
where native technology features are absent or inadequate.
So why should standard INPUT type=text with a proper LABEL with for-id
association be trumped by aria-labelledby attribute?

One should use aria-labelledby in situations like a custom form
control that will not support LABEL with for-id technique.
Or, where multiple labels need to be associated with a form control
and browser/ATs do not support that well / uniformly.

I agree ARIA attributes are very useful (as stated above) to relate
visually available content on the page with other elements like form
controls on the page.
But I do not see the benefit of placing off-screen content and, say,
using aria-describedby to relate that text to a form control as its
accessible-description when the good old title accomplishes the same.
And then according aria-describedby a higher status than the title.
Anyway the off-screen text is not available to non AT-users.
The title is at least available to mouse users besides AT users.
Thanks and regards,
Sailesh Panchang
www.deque.com

Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105






On 11/19/12, Steve Faulkner < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>Sure, but if there's another completely valid, easy way to label an
> element that is not as buggy--namely, using a label!--why not use that
> method?
>
> I have encountered buggy screen reader behaviour with hidden label elements
> in past. in the end you pick what you think works best.
>
> regards
> steve
>
> On 19 November 2012 14:42, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
>> Sure, but if there's another completely valid, easy way to label an
>> element that is not as buggy--namely, using a label!--why not use that
>> method?
>>
>> Zoe
>>
>> Zoe Gillenwater
>> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
>> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>>
>> o: 919-241-4083
>> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>
>> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>>
>> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
>> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
>> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the named
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>> this message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
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>> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
>> <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Steve Faulkner
>> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:59 AM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>
>> Hi Zoe,
>>
>> When a control lacks another form of explicit labelling, the title
>> attribute content is mapped to the accessible name for the control. This
>> is
>> consistent across plaforms and accessibility APIs, this has been the case
>> for a long time and is the standardized behaviour [1].
>>
>> While we should take into account the bugs in AT when newer technologies
>> are used (example ARIA), we should be filing bugs against those
>> AT/browsers
>> that do not follow the standards as trying to code to take into account
>> bugs in every AT that do not make use of the accessibility information
>> exposed in a standardized/agreed way is a losing proposition.
>>
>>
>> [1] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-api-map/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#calc
>>
>> regards
>> SteveF
>>
>> On 19 November 2012 13:41, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Sailesh,
>> >
>> > One advantage for hidden labels that I've found when testing the
>> > difference between them and title attributes on form fields is that a
>> > few
>> > screen reader-browser combinations will not read the title text in
>> > normal
>> > reading mode, only when focused in the form field. The hidden label
>> always
>> > gets read in both normal and forms reading modes. This seems
>> > non-trivial
>> to
>> > me, as hearing label-less form fields announced would be confusing and
>> > doesn't give you the information you need to be able to decide whether
>> you
>> > want to go into forms reading mode. Have you never seen this behavior
>> with
>> > title text in normal reading mode?
>> >
>> > I've even seen cases where not only is the title text not announced in
>> > normal reading mode, but the type of form field is not announced, so
>> > you
>> > have no idea anything is even there to enter forms mode for. Granted,
>> this
>> > has only happened to me in older screen readers, but still, it's a
>> > pretty
>> > big problem. Again, this is just in normal reading mode--I've had no
>> > problems with title text in forms reading mode. But because of this,
>> using
>> > regular old labels seems far safer in many contexts. Title text has its
>> > place too, but I'm starting to think that hidden labels should be the
>> > technique of first resort (apart from adding visible labels whenever
>> > possible, of course!).
>> >
>> > I'd love to hear differing opinions on this! :-)
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Zoe
>> >
>> > Zoe Gillenwater
>> > Web Accessibility Technical Architect
>> > AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>> >
>> > o: 919-241-4083
>> > e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >
>> > 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>> >
>> > This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
>> > confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
>> > entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the
>> > named
>> > recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received
>> > this message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
>> > immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
>> dissemination,
>> > forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
>> > <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh Panchang
>> > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:53 PM
>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> >
>> > As per WCAG2 techniques, title on form controls should be used when
>> > visible label is not present ... i.e. when purpose of form control is
>> > obvious generally to sighted users / as per UI design.
>> > (If purpose is not obvious visually, then the fix is to incorporate a
>> > visual text label for the benefit of all users).
>> >
>> > Using title in these situations mainly to convey purpose of control to
>> > non-sighted users is well supported by browsers and AT, both recent
>> > and legacy ones.
>> > Title is also available via mouseover to some sighted users who might
>> > need them.
>> > I do not recommend using off-screen label: it is more work and code
>> > and not available to anyone except screen reader / magnification users
>> > unless CSS is turned off.
>> > Sailesh Panchang
>> > Deque Systems
>> >
>> >
>> > On 11/9/12, Michael R. Burks < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> > > I would like to add that we should code to the standards, not to a
>> > specific
>> > > type of Assistive Technology.
>> > >
>> > > Sincerely,
>> > >
>> > > Mike Burks
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> > > [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Michael R.
>> > Burks
>> > > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 7:51 PM
>> > > To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
>> > > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> > >
>> > > It has not been my experience that title attributes work well with
>> Dragon
>> > >
>> > > Sincerely,
>> > >
>> > > Mike Burks
>> > > 919-882-1884 - Fax
>> > > 919-349-6661 - Office
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> > > [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Ryan E.
>> > Benson
>> > > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:59 PM
>> > > To: <EMAIL REMOVED> ; WebAIM Discussion List
>> > > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> > >
>> > > Léonie Watson wrote:
>> > >> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by
>> > >> default,
>> > >> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception
>> > >> I
>> > >> think.
>> > > ZoomText (v9.5 at least) will read the title attribute instead of the
>> > > label.
>> > > The same goes with links with a title attribute, it reads the title
>> > versus
>> > > linking words.
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Ryan E. Benson
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Léonie Watson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >> Angela French wrote:
>> > >> " Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text
>> > >> field and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the
>> > >> <input>
>> > >> tag redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words,
>> > >> would
>> > >> a screen reader say the word twice?"
>> > >>
>> > >> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by
>> > >> default,
>> > >> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception
>> > >> I
>> > >> think.
>> > >>
>> > >> Assuming the label is visible, it's worth asking what value the
>> > >> title
>> > >> attribute brings in this case?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Léonie.
>> > >>
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> > >> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Angela
>> > >> French
>> > >> Sent: 09 November 2012 18:22
>> > >> To: 'WebAim Forum ( <EMAIL REMOVED> )'
>> > >> Subject: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> > >>
>> > >> Hello,
>> > >> Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text
>> > >> field
>> > >> and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input> tag
>> > >> redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would a
>> > >> screen reader say the word twice?
>> > >>
>> > >> Example:
>> > >>
>> > >> <label for="searchfield" class="offscreen"> Search</label><input
>> > >> id="searchfield" type="text" title="Search">
>> > >>
>> > >> Thank you,
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Angela French
>> > >> Internet Specialist
>> > >> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
>> > >> 360-704-4316
>> > >> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> > >> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>> > >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> > > >> > > >> list
>> > > messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> > >
>> > > >> > > >> list
>> > > messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> > >
>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >
>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> with regards
>>
>> Steve Faulkner
>> Technical Director - TPG
>>
>> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> > > >