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Re: Is use of <label> and title redundant?

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From: GILLENWATER, ZOE M
Date: Nov 19, 2012 8:18AM

Hi Sailesh,

I'm afraid I don't understand your feedback. Do you think it's good for a screen reader to not read a form field's title text in normal reading mode? Or do you think a screen reader shouldn't read a hidden label in normal reading mode? Or do you mean something else entirely?

Even if a label is hidden visually, it's still programmatically connected to the field, so I don't understand what you mean by this part of your response either...

Genuinely trying to figure this out and do the right thing!

Thanks,
Zoe

Zoe Gillenwater
Web Accessibility Technical Architect
AT&T Consumer Digital Experience

o: 919-241-4083
e:   <EMAIL REMOVED>

4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703

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-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh Panchang
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:09 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?

Zoe,
Certainly I have seen that behavior where the screen reader reads the
off-screen label as one is arrowing down the page.
But then one is reading content that is not visually available on the
page and in that mode the label is really not programmatically
associated with the form control.
The user has to use his/her understanding / judgment to make this determination.
Off-screen text that helps to convey structure / info-relationships
(e.g. headings) when no other cues are available is alright but
otherwise visual content should generally match / be in sync with
screen reader output.

In forms mode, the title clearly conveys the purpose of the control.
This technique is in line withH65 of WCAG 2 techniques.

Thanks,
Sailesh Panchang
www.deque.com
Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105


On 11/19/12, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Hi Sailesh,
>
> One advantage for hidden labels that I've found when testing the difference
> between them and title attributes on form fields is that a few screen
> reader-browser combinations will not read the title text in normal reading
> mode, only when focused in the form field. The hidden label always gets read
> in both normal and forms reading modes. This seems non-trivial to me, as
> hearing label-less form fields announced would be confusing and doesn't give
> you the information you need to be able to decide whether you want to go
> into forms reading mode. Have you never seen this behavior with title text
> in normal reading mode?
>
> I've even seen cases where not only is the title text not announced in
> normal reading mode, but the type of form field is not announced, so you
> have no idea anything is even there to enter forms mode for. Granted, this
> has only happened to me in older screen readers, but still, it's a pretty
> big problem. Again, this is just in normal reading mode--I've had no
> problems with title text in forms reading mode. But because of this, using
> regular old labels seems far safer in many contexts. Title text has its
> place too, but I'm starting to think that hidden labels should be the
> technique of first resort (apart from adding visible labels whenever
> possible, of course!).
>
> I'd love to hear differing opinions on this! :-)
>
> Thanks,
> Zoe
>
> Zoe Gillenwater
> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>
> o: 919-241-4083
> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>
> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>
> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the named
> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received this
> message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention, dissemination,
> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh Panchang
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:53 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>
> As per WCAG2 techniques, title on form controls should be used when
> visible label is not present ... i.e. when purpose of form control is
> obvious generally to sighted users / as per UI design.
> (If purpose is not obvious visually, then the fix is to incorporate a
> visual text label for the benefit of all users).
>
> Using title in these situations mainly to convey purpose of control to
> non-sighted users is well supported by browsers and AT, both recent
> and legacy ones.
> Title is also available via mouseover to some sighted users who might
> need them.
> I do not recommend using off-screen label: it is more work and code
> and not available to anyone except screen reader / magnification users
> unless CSS is turned off.
> Sailesh Panchang
> Deque Systems
>
>
> On 11/9/12, Michael R. Burks < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> I would like to add that we should code to the standards, not to a
>> specific
>> type of Assistive Technology.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Mike Burks
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Michael R.
>> Burks
>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 7:51 PM
>> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>
>> It has not been my experience that title attributes work well with Dragon
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Mike Burks
>> 919-882-1884 - Fax
>> 919-349-6661 - Office
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Ryan E. Benson
>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:59 PM
>> To: <EMAIL REMOVED> ; WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>
>> Léonie Watson wrote:
>>> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by default,
>>> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception I
>>> think.
>> ZoomText (v9.5 at least) will read the title attribute instead of the
>> label.
>> The same goes with links with a title attribute, it reads the title
>> versus
>> linking words.
>>
>> --
>> Ryan E. Benson
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Léonie Watson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>> Angela French wrote:
>>> " Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text
>>> field and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input>
>>> tag redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would
>>> a screen reader say the word twice?"
>>>
>>> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by default,
>>> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception I
>>> think.
>>>
>>> Assuming the label is visible, it's worth asking what value the title
>>> attribute brings in this case?
>>>
>>>
>>> Léonie.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Angela
>>> French
>>> Sent: 09 November 2012 18:22
>>> To: 'WebAim Forum ( <EMAIL REMOVED> )'
>>> Subject: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text field
>>> and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input> tag
>>> redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would a
>>> screen reader say the word twice?
>>>
>>> Example:
>>>
>>> <label for="searchfield" class="offscreen"> Search</label><input
>>> id="searchfield" type="text" title="Search">
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>>
>>> Angela French
>>> Internet Specialist
>>> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
>>> 360-704-4316
>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>>>
>>> >>> >>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>> >>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>
>> >> >> messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>
>> >> >> >>
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