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Re: Is use of <label> and title redundant?

for

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Nov 19, 2012 8:25AM


Hi Sailesh,

>I think I had previously expressed my concern about the logic stated in
>HTML to Platform Accessibility APIs Implementation Guide.

the API guide only reflects what is implemented in browsers in this regard.

The API mappings and algorithms are distinct from the advice in ARIA about
what authors should do.

ARIA also states that ARIA roles override native roles, which is what is
implemented in browsers.

example:

<button role=checkbox> is exposed as a checkbox not a button.

whether authors are advised to do this is a different matter.

regards
Steve



On 19 November 2012 15:18, Sailesh Panchang < <EMAIL REMOVED> >wrote:

> Steve,
> I think I had previously expressed my concern about the logic stated in
> HTML to Platform Accessibility APIs Implementation Guide.
> I see that the algorithm accords a higher order to ARIA attributesand
> not the native HTML elements / attributes.
> This is contrary to what the Intro to ARIA advises : use ARIA only
> where native technology features are absent or inadequate.
> So why should standard INPUT type=text with a proper LABEL with for-id
> association be trumped by aria-labelledby attribute?
>
> One should use aria-labelledby in situations like a custom form
> control that will not support LABEL with for-id technique.
> Or, where multiple labels need to be associated with a form control
> and browser/ATs do not support that well / uniformly.
>
> I agree ARIA attributes are very useful (as stated above) to relate
> visually available content on the page with other elements like form
> controls on the page.
> But I do not see the benefit of placing off-screen content and, say,
> using aria-describedby to relate that text to a form control as its
> accessible-description when the good old title accomplishes the same.
> And then according aria-describedby a higher status than the title.
> Anyway the off-screen text is not available to non AT-users.
> The title is at least available to mouse users besides AT users.
> Thanks and regards,
> Sailesh Panchang
> www.deque.com
>
> Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/19/12, Steve Faulkner < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >>Sure, but if there's another completely valid, easy way to label an
> > element that is not as buggy--namely, using a label!--why not use that
> > method?
> >
> > I have encountered buggy screen reader behaviour with hidden label
> elements
> > in past. in the end you pick what you think works best.
> >
> > regards
> > steve
> >
> > On 19 November 2012 14:42, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >
> >> Sure, but if there's another completely valid, easy way to label an
> >> element that is not as buggy--namely, using a label!--why not use that
> >> method?
> >>
> >> Zoe
> >>
> >> Zoe Gillenwater
> >> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
> >> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
> >>
> >> o: 919-241-4083
> >> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>
> >> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
> >>
> >> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
> >> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
> >> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the named
> >> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received
> >> this message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
> >> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
> >> dissemination,
> >> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
> >> <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Steve Faulkner
> >> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:59 AM
> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >>
> >> Hi Zoe,
> >>
> >> When a control lacks another form of explicit labelling, the title
> >> attribute content is mapped to the accessible name for the control. This
> >> is
> >> consistent across plaforms and accessibility APIs, this has been the
> case
> >> for a long time and is the standardized behaviour [1].
> >>
> >> While we should take into account the bugs in AT when newer technologies
> >> are used (example ARIA), we should be filing bugs against those
> >> AT/browsers
> >> that do not follow the standards as trying to code to take into account
> >> bugs in every AT that do not make use of the accessibility information
> >> exposed in a standardized/agreed way is a losing proposition.
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-api-map/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#calc
> >>
> >> regards
> >> SteveF
> >>
> >> On 19 November 2012 13:41, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi Sailesh,
> >> >
> >> > One advantage for hidden labels that I've found when testing the
> >> > difference between them and title attributes on form fields is that a
> >> > few
> >> > screen reader-browser combinations will not read the title text in
> >> > normal
> >> > reading mode, only when focused in the form field. The hidden label
> >> always
> >> > gets read in both normal and forms reading modes. This seems
> >> > non-trivial
> >> to
> >> > me, as hearing label-less form fields announced would be confusing and
> >> > doesn't give you the information you need to be able to decide whether
> >> you
> >> > want to go into forms reading mode. Have you never seen this behavior
> >> with
> >> > title text in normal reading mode?
> >> >
> >> > I've even seen cases where not only is the title text not announced in
> >> > normal reading mode, but the type of form field is not announced, so
> >> > you
> >> > have no idea anything is even there to enter forms mode for. Granted,
> >> this
> >> > has only happened to me in older screen readers, but still, it's a
> >> > pretty
> >> > big problem. Again, this is just in normal reading mode--I've had no
> >> > problems with title text in forms reading mode. But because of this,
> >> using
> >> > regular old labels seems far safer in many contexts. Title text has
> its
> >> > place too, but I'm starting to think that hidden labels should be the
> >> > technique of first resort (apart from adding visible labels whenever
> >> > possible, of course!).
> >> >
> >> > I'd love to hear differing opinions on this! :-)
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Zoe
> >> >
> >> > Zoe Gillenwater
> >> > Web Accessibility Technical Architect
> >> > AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
> >> >
> >> > o: 919-241-4083
> >> > e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> >
> >> > 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
> >> >
> >> > This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
> >> > confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
> >> > entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the
> >> > named
> >> > recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have
> received
> >> > this message in error, please notify the sender and delete this
> message
> >> > immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
> >> dissemination,
> >> > forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
> >> > <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh Panchang
> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:53 PM
> >> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >> >
> >> > As per WCAG2 techniques, title on form controls should be used when
> >> > visible label is not present ... i.e. when purpose of form control is
> >> > obvious generally to sighted users / as per UI design.
> >> > (If purpose is not obvious visually, then the fix is to incorporate a
> >> > visual text label for the benefit of all users).
> >> >
> >> > Using title in these situations mainly to convey purpose of control to
> >> > non-sighted users is well supported by browsers and AT, both recent
> >> > and legacy ones.
> >> > Title is also available via mouseover to some sighted users who might
> >> > need them.
> >> > I do not recommend using off-screen label: it is more work and code
> >> > and not available to anyone except screen reader / magnification users
> >> > unless CSS is turned off.
> >> > Sailesh Panchang
> >> > Deque Systems
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 11/9/12, Michael R. Burks < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >> > > I would like to add that we should code to the standards, not to a
> >> > specific
> >> > > type of Assistive Technology.
> >> > >
> >> > > Sincerely,
> >> > >
> >> > > Mike Burks
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> > > [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Michael
> R.
> >> > Burks
> >> > > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 7:51 PM
> >> > > To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
> >> > > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >> > >
> >> > > It has not been my experience that title attributes work well with
> >> Dragon
> >> > >
> >> > > Sincerely,
> >> > >
> >> > > Mike Burks
> >> > > 919-882-1884 - Fax
> >> > > 919-349-6661 - Office
> >> > >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> > > [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Ryan E.
> >> > Benson
> >> > > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:59 PM
> >> > > To: <EMAIL REMOVED> ; WebAIM Discussion List
> >> > > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >> > >
> >> > > Léonie Watson wrote:
> >> > >> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by
> >> > >> default,
> >> > >> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the
> exception
> >> > >> I
> >> > >> think.
> >> > > ZoomText (v9.5 at least) will read the title attribute instead of
> the
> >> > > label.
> >> > > The same goes with links with a title attribute, it reads the title
> >> > versus
> >> > > linking words.
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Ryan E. Benson
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Léonie Watson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >> Angela French wrote:
> >> > >> " Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text
> >> > >> field and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the
> >> > >> <input>
> >> > >> tag redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words,
> >> > >> would
> >> > >> a screen reader say the word twice?"
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by
> >> > >> default,
> >> > >> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the
> exception
> >> > >> I
> >> > >> think.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Assuming the label is visible, it's worth asking what value the
> >> > >> title
> >> > >> attribute brings in this case?
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Léonie.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> -----Original Message-----
> >> > >> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> > >> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Angela
> >> > >> French
> >> > >> Sent: 09 November 2012 18:22
> >> > >> To: 'WebAim Forum ( <EMAIL REMOVED> )'
> >> > >> Subject: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Hello,
> >> > >> Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text
> >> > >> field
> >> > >> and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input> tag
> >> > >> redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would a
> >> > >> screen reader say the word twice?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Example:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> <label for="searchfield" class="offscreen"> Search</label><input
> >> > >> id="searchfield" type="text" title="Search">
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Thank you,
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Angela French
> >> > >> Internet Specialist
> >> > >> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> >> > >> 360-704-4316
> >> > >> <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> > >> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> > > > >> > > > >> list
> >> > > messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> > >
> >> > > > >> > > > >> list
> >> > > messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> > >
> >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> with regards
> >>
> >> Steve Faulkner
> >> Technical Director - TPG
> >>
> >> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> >> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> >> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> >> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> >> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> >> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > with regards
> >
> > Steve Faulkner
> > Technical Director - TPG
> >
> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> > > > > > > >
> > > >



--
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html