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Re: Is use of <label> and title redundant?

for

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Nov 19, 2012 9:39AM

>ARIA also states that ARIA roles override native roles, which is what is
>implemented in browsers.
Yes I have noted that too and a link with role=button is exposed as a button.
So then is there a disconnect in the ARIA specs? I mean is the
recommendation not in sync with the intent?
Sailesh


On 11/19/12, Steve Faulkner < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Hi Sailesh,
>
>>I think I had previously expressed my concern about the logic stated in
>>HTML to Platform Accessibility APIs Implementation Guide.
>
> the API guide only reflects what is implemented in browsers in this regard.
>
> The API mappings and algorithms are distinct from the advice in ARIA about
> what authors should do.
>
> ARIA also states that ARIA roles override native roles, which is what is
> implemented in browsers.
>
> example:
>
> <button role=checkbox> is exposed as a checkbox not a button.
>
> whether authors are advised to do this is a different matter.
>
> regards
> Steve
>
>
>
> On 19 November 2012 15:18, Sailesh Panchang
> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>> I think I had previously expressed my concern about the logic stated in
>> HTML to Platform Accessibility APIs Implementation Guide.
>> I see that the algorithm accords a higher order to ARIA attributesand
>> not the native HTML elements / attributes.
>> This is contrary to what the Intro to ARIA advises : use ARIA only
>> where native technology features are absent or inadequate.
>> So why should standard INPUT type=text with a proper LABEL with for-id
>> association be trumped by aria-labelledby attribute?
>>
>> One should use aria-labelledby in situations like a custom form
>> control that will not support LABEL with for-id technique.
>> Or, where multiple labels need to be associated with a form control
>> and browser/ATs do not support that well / uniformly.
>>
>> I agree ARIA attributes are very useful (as stated above) to relate
>> visually available content on the page with other elements like form
>> controls on the page.
>> But I do not see the benefit of placing off-screen content and, say,
>> using aria-describedby to relate that text to a form control as its
>> accessible-description when the good old title accomplishes the same.
>> And then according aria-describedby a higher status than the title.
>> Anyway the off-screen text is not available to non AT-users.
>> The title is at least available to mouse users besides AT users.
>> Thanks and regards,
>> Sailesh Panchang
>> www.deque.com
>>
>> Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/19/12, Steve Faulkner < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >>Sure, but if there's another completely valid, easy way to label an
>> > element that is not as buggy--namely, using a label!--why not use that
>> > method?
>> >
>> > I have encountered buggy screen reader behaviour with hidden label
>> elements
>> > in past. in the end you pick what you think works best.
>> >
>> > regards
>> > steve
>> >
>> > On 19 November 2012 14:42, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Sure, but if there's another completely valid, easy way to label an
>> >> element that is not as buggy--namely, using a label!--why not use that
>> >> method?
>> >>
>> >> Zoe
>> >>
>> >> Zoe Gillenwater
>> >> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
>> >> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>> >>
>> >> o: 919-241-4083
>> >> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >>
>> >> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>> >>
>> >> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
>> >> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
>> >> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the
>> >> named
>> >> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have
>> >> received
>> >> this message in error, please notify the sender and delete this
>> >> message
>> >> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
>> >> dissemination,
>> >> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
>> >> <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Steve Faulkner
>> >> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:59 AM
>> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> >>
>> >> Hi Zoe,
>> >>
>> >> When a control lacks another form of explicit labelling, the title
>> >> attribute content is mapped to the accessible name for the control.
>> >> This
>> >> is
>> >> consistent across plaforms and accessibility APIs, this has been the
>> case
>> >> for a long time and is the standardized behaviour [1].
>> >>
>> >> While we should take into account the bugs in AT when newer
>> >> technologies
>> >> are used (example ARIA), we should be filing bugs against those
>> >> AT/browsers
>> >> that do not follow the standards as trying to code to take into
>> >> account
>> >> bugs in every AT that do not make use of the accessibility information
>> >> exposed in a standardized/agreed way is a losing proposition.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> [1] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-api-map/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#calc
>> >>
>> >> regards
>> >> SteveF
>> >>
>> >> On 19 November 2012 13:41, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Hi Sailesh,
>> >> >
>> >> > One advantage for hidden labels that I've found when testing the
>> >> > difference between them and title attributes on form fields is that
>> >> > a
>> >> > few
>> >> > screen reader-browser combinations will not read the title text in
>> >> > normal
>> >> > reading mode, only when focused in the form field. The hidden label
>> >> always
>> >> > gets read in both normal and forms reading modes. This seems
>> >> > non-trivial
>> >> to
>> >> > me, as hearing label-less form fields announced would be confusing
>> >> > and
>> >> > doesn't give you the information you need to be able to decide
>> >> > whether
>> >> you
>> >> > want to go into forms reading mode. Have you never seen this
>> >> > behavior
>> >> with
>> >> > title text in normal reading mode?
>> >> >
>> >> > I've even seen cases where not only is the title text not announced
>> >> > in
>> >> > normal reading mode, but the type of form field is not announced, so
>> >> > you
>> >> > have no idea anything is even there to enter forms mode for.
>> >> > Granted,
>> >> this
>> >> > has only happened to me in older screen readers, but still, it's a
>> >> > pretty
>> >> > big problem. Again, this is just in normal reading mode--I've had no
>> >> > problems with title text in forms reading mode. But because of this,
>> >> using
>> >> > regular old labels seems far safer in many contexts. Title text has
>> its
>> >> > place too, but I'm starting to think that hidden labels should be
>> >> > the
>> >> > technique of first resort (apart from adding visible labels whenever
>> >> > possible, of course!).
>> >> >
>> >> > I'd love to hear differing opinions on this! :-)
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks,
>> >> > Zoe
>> >> >
>> >> > Zoe Gillenwater
>> >> > Web Accessibility Technical Architect
>> >> > AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>> >> >
>> >> > o: 919-241-4083
>> >> > e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >
>> >> > 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>> >> >
>> >> > This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
>> >> > confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual
>> >> > or
>> >> > entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the
>> >> > named
>> >> > recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have
>> received
>> >> > this message in error, please notify the sender and delete this
>> message
>> >> > immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
>> >> dissemination,
>> >> > forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly
>> >> > prohibited.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
>> >> > <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh Panchang
>> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:53 PM
>> >> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> >> >
>> >> > As per WCAG2 techniques, title on form controls should be used when
>> >> > visible label is not present ... i.e. when purpose of form control
>> >> > is
>> >> > obvious generally to sighted users / as per UI design.
>> >> > (If purpose is not obvious visually, then the fix is to incorporate
>> >> > a
>> >> > visual text label for the benefit of all users).
>> >> >
>> >> > Using title in these situations mainly to convey purpose of control
>> >> > to
>> >> > non-sighted users is well supported by browsers and AT, both recent
>> >> > and legacy ones.
>> >> > Title is also available via mouseover to some sighted users who
>> >> > might
>> >> > need them.
>> >> > I do not recommend using off-screen label: it is more work and code
>> >> > and not available to anyone except screen reader / magnification
>> >> > users
>> >> > unless CSS is turned off.
>> >> > Sailesh Panchang
>> >> > Deque Systems
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 11/9/12, Michael R. Burks < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >> > > I would like to add that we should code to the standards, not to a
>> >> > specific
>> >> > > type of Assistive Technology.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Sincerely,
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Mike Burks
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> > > [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Michael
>> R.
>> >> > Burks
>> >> > > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 7:51 PM
>> >> > > To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
>> >> > > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > It has not been my experience that title attributes work well with
>> >> Dragon
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Sincerely,
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Mike Burks
>> >> > > 919-882-1884 - Fax
>> >> > > 919-349-6661 - Office
>> >> > >
>> >> > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> > > [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Ryan E.
>> >> > Benson
>> >> > > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:59 PM
>> >> > > To: <EMAIL REMOVED> ; WebAIM Discussion List
>> >> > > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Léonie Watson wrote:
>> >> > >> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by
>> >> > >> default,
>> >> > >> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the
>> exception
>> >> > >> I
>> >> > >> think.
>> >> > > ZoomText (v9.5 at least) will read the title attribute instead of
>> the
>> >> > > label.
>> >> > > The same goes with links with a title attribute, it reads the
>> >> > > title
>> >> > versus
>> >> > > linking words.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > --
>> >> > > Ryan E. Benson
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Léonie Watson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > >> Angela French wrote:
>> >> > >> " Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text
>> >> > >> field and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the
>> >> > >> <input>
>> >> > >> tag redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words,
>> >> > >> would
>> >> > >> a screen reader say the word twice?"
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by
>> >> > >> default,
>> >> > >> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the
>> exception
>> >> > >> I
>> >> > >> think.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Assuming the label is visible, it's worth asking what value the
>> >> > >> title
>> >> > >> attribute brings in this case?
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Léonie.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> > >> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> > >> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Angela
>> >> > >> French
>> >> > >> Sent: 09 November 2012 18:22
>> >> > >> To: 'WebAim Forum ( <EMAIL REMOVED> )'
>> >> > >> Subject: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Hello,
>> >> > >> Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text
>> >> > >> field
>> >> > >> and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input>
>> >> > >> tag
>> >> > >> redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would
>> >> > >> a
>> >> > >> screen reader say the word twice?
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Example:
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> <label for="searchfield" class="offscreen"> Search</label><input
>> >> > >> id="searchfield" type="text" title="Search">
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Thank you,
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Angela French
>> >> > >> Internet Specialist
>> >> > >> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
>> >> > >> 360-704-4316
>> >> > >> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> > >> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Address
>> >> > >> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Address
>> >> > >> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> list
>> >> > > messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> > >
>> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> list
>> >> > > messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> > >
>> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >
>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> with regards
>> >>
>> >> Steve Faulkner
>> >> Technical Director - TPG
>> >>
>> >> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>> >> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> >> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>> >> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> >> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>> >> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > with regards
>> >
>> > Steve Faulkner
>> > Technical Director - TPG
>> >
>> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> >> >> >>
>
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> > > >