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Re: Is use of <label> and title redundant?

for

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Nov 19, 2012 10:12AM

On 11/19/12, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Hi Sailesh,
>
> I'm afraid I don't understand your feedback. Do you think it's good for a
> screen reader to not read a form field's title text in normal reading mode?
> Or do you think a screen reader shouldn't read a hidden label in normal
> reading mode? Or do you mean something else entirely?
Sailesh: It is generally in situations where the UI design limits the
ability of developers to place a visible text label (like a search
edit box or controls in a table with row/col headers that serve as
'labels') that a title works adequately.
In these situations I am not adversely impacted when the screen
reader does not read the title in browse mode.
So an off-screen label is not a game changer in these circs. It does
not add a whole lot of accessibility benefit.
It is like a data table: the screen reader does not speak row/col
headers unless one is in table-nav mode.
Most screen readers speak the alt for an image in browse mode and do
not speak the title for a form control. It has been so always maybe
for a reason.

If the visible label text is not adequate for non-sighted users,
appending off-screen text to the label is fine.

>
> Even if a label is hidden visually, it's still programmatically connected to
> the field, so I don't understand what you mean by this part of your response
> either...
Sailesh: Sure, but that association kicks-in only in forms mode and
for non-sighted users a label is no different from any other piece of
text on the page in non-forms mode.

Sailesh Panchang
www.deque.com
Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105
>
> Genuinely trying to figure this out and do the right thing!
>
> Thanks,
> Zoe
>
> Zoe Gillenwater
> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>
> o: 919-241-4083
> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>
> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>
> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the named
> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received this
> message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention, dissemination,
> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh Panchang
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:09 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>
> Zoe,
> Certainly I have seen that behavior where the screen reader reads the
> off-screen label as one is arrowing down the page.
> But then one is reading content that is not visually available on the
> page and in that mode the label is really not programmatically
> associated with the form control.
> The user has to use his/her understanding / judgment to make this
> determination.
> Off-screen text that helps to convey structure / info-relationships
> (e.g. headings) when no other cues are available is alright but
> otherwise visual content should generally match / be in sync with
> screen reader output.
>
> In forms mode, the title clearly conveys the purpose of the control.
> This technique is in line withH65 of WCAG 2 techniques.
>
> Thanks,
> Sailesh Panchang
> www.deque.com
> Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105
>
>
> On 11/19/12, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> Hi Sailesh,
>>
>> One advantage for hidden labels that I've found when testing the
>> difference
>> between them and title attributes on form fields is that a few screen
>> reader-browser combinations will not read the title text in normal
>> reading
>> mode, only when focused in the form field. The hidden label always gets
>> read
>> in both normal and forms reading modes. This seems non-trivial to me, as
>> hearing label-less form fields announced would be confusing and doesn't
>> give
>> you the information you need to be able to decide whether you want to go
>> into forms reading mode. Have you never seen this behavior with title
>> text
>> in normal reading mode?
>>
>> I've even seen cases where not only is the title text not announced in
>> normal reading mode, but the type of form field is not announced, so you
>> have no idea anything is even there to enter forms mode for. Granted,
>> this
>> has only happened to me in older screen readers, but still, it's a pretty
>> big problem. Again, this is just in normal reading mode--I've had no
>> problems with title text in forms reading mode. But because of this,
>> using
>> regular old labels seems far safer in many contexts. Title text has its
>> place too, but I'm starting to think that hidden labels should be the
>> technique of first resort (apart from adding visible labels whenever
>> possible, of course!).
>>
>> I'd love to hear differing opinions on this! :-)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Zoe
>>
>> Zoe Gillenwater
>> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
>> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>>
>> o: 919-241-4083
>> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>
>> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>>
>> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
>> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
>> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the named
>> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received
>> this
>> message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
>> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
>> dissemination,
>> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh
>> Panchang
>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:53 PM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>
>> As per WCAG2 techniques, title on form controls should be used when
>> visible label is not present ... i.e. when purpose of form control is
>> obvious generally to sighted users / as per UI design.
>> (If purpose is not obvious visually, then the fix is to incorporate a
>> visual text label for the benefit of all users).
>>
>> Using title in these situations mainly to convey purpose of control to
>> non-sighted users is well supported by browsers and AT, both recent
>> and legacy ones.
>> Title is also available via mouseover to some sighted users who might
>> need them.
>> I do not recommend using off-screen label: it is more work and code
>> and not available to anyone except screen reader / magnification users
>> unless CSS is turned off.
>> Sailesh Panchang
>> Deque Systems
>>
>>
>> On 11/9/12, Michael R. Burks < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>> I would like to add that we should code to the standards, not to a
>>> specific
>>> type of Assistive Technology.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Mike Burks
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Michael R.
>>> Burks
>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 7:51 PM
>>> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>>
>>> It has not been my experience that title attributes work well with
>>> Dragon
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Mike Burks
>>> 919-882-1884 - Fax
>>> 919-349-6661 - Office
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Ryan E.
>>> Benson
>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:59 PM
>>> To: <EMAIL REMOVED> ; WebAIM Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>>
>>> Léonie Watson wrote:
>>>> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by default,
>>>> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception I
>>>> think.
>>> ZoomText (v9.5 at least) will read the title attribute instead of the
>>> label.
>>> The same goes with links with a title attribute, it reads the title
>>> versus
>>> linking words.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ryan E. Benson
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Léonie Watson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>> Angela French wrote:
>>>> " Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text
>>>> field and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input>
>>>> tag redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would
>>>> a screen reader say the word twice?"
>>>>
>>>> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by default,
>>>> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception I
>>>> think.
>>>>
>>>> Assuming the label is visible, it's worth asking what value the title
>>>> attribute brings in this case?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Léonie.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Angela
>>>> French
>>>> Sent: 09 November 2012 18:22
>>>> To: 'WebAim Forum ( <EMAIL REMOVED> )'
>>>> Subject: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text field
>>>> and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input> tag
>>>> redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would a
>>>> screen reader say the word twice?
>>>>
>>>> Example:
>>>>
>>>> <label for="searchfield" class="offscreen"> Search</label><input
>>>> id="searchfield" type="text" title="Search">
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Angela French
>>>> Internet Specialist
>>>> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
>>>> 360-704-4316
>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > > > >