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Re: Is use of <label> and title redundant?

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From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Nov 20, 2012 9:47AM

Bryan,
NVDA reads LABEL element text ... it does not read title when arrowing down.
Sailesh

On 11/19/12, Bryan Garaventa < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Wouldn't this be a bug in NVDA then? It doesn't make sense that, if an
> explicit label is present, that it would not be announced when arrowing.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sailesh Panchang" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 2:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>
>
> Zoe / Bryan,
>
> JAWS does read title in Firefox and IE when arrowing down the page
> (without activating forms mode).
> NVDA does not read the title unless one is in forms mode.
> Using title is simpler as I have maintained all along as compared to
> off-screen label in the situations discussed.
> Failing to markup visible labels as labels and use title instead will
> fail SC 3.3.2.
> It is not alright to simply use title there.
> Sailesh
>
>
> On 11/19/12, Bryan Garaventa < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> When you refer to browse mode, do you mean when using the arrow keys to
>> navigate up and down the page in the Virtual Buffer?
>>
>> When title attributes are included on form fields, I'm hearing these
>> announced correctly as form field labels in addition to tabbing using
>> interactive mode.
>>
>> This can be broken if a title attribute is included on a form field that
>> also includes an explicit label element with matching for and ID
>> attributes
>>
>> in some ATs though.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "GILLENWATER, ZOE M" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>
>>
>> Hi Sailesh,
>>
>> But if you were using visible labels you *would* hear them read in browse
>> mode, so using title text that is not read in browse mode is a different
>> experience from the norm, and it seems to me a worse one.
>>
>> For instance, if I had three fields for month, day, and year of a
>> birthday,
>>
>> and each had a visible label in front of it, I would hear in browse mode
>> something like "Birthday. Month, edit, blank. Day, edit, blank. Year,
>> edit,
>>
>> blank." It's clear to me what those fields are, which allows me to know
>> whether or not I want to enter forms mode and fill out this form.
>>
>> But if I got rid of the visible labels and just used title text, some
>> screen
>>
>> reader users would now hear in browse mode something like "Birthday.
>> Edit,
>> blank. Edit, blank. Edit, blank." You don't think this is a worse
>> experience
>>
>> than the former? Sure, I can guess at what each of those fields is, and
>> have
>>
>> my guess validated when I enter forms mode and finally hear the title
>> text,
>>
>> but why should the user have to do this? Why not just provide hidden
>> labels
>>
>> so they hear the exact same thing they would hear had visible labels been
>> used instead?
>>
>> I still don't see what advantage using title has over a hidden label,
>> apart
>>
>> from:
>> -- it's slightly less bytes of HTML
>> -- it's slightly easier to implement (if you don't already have a hiding
>> CSS
>>
>> class in your CSS, but if you do, creating hidden labels is pretty much
>> just
>>
>> as easy)
>> -- it will show on hover as a tooltip to mouse-using sighted users (which
>> could be seen as a disadvantage by some people in some situations)
>>
>> What am I missing? Are these the only reasons why you find title to be
>> superior?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Zoe
>>
>>
>>
>> Zoe Gillenwater
>> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
>> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>>
>> o: 919-241-4083
>> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>
>> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>>
>> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
>> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
>> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the named
>> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received
>> this
>>
>> message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
>> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention, dissemination,
>> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh
>> Panchang
>> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:13 PM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>
>> On 11/19/12, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>> Hi Sailesh,
>>>
>>> I'm afraid I don't understand your feedback. Do you think it's good for
>>> a
>>> screen reader to not read a form field's title text in normal reading
>>> mode?
>>> Or do you think a screen reader shouldn't read a hidden label in normal
>>> reading mode? Or do you mean something else entirely?
>> Sailesh: It is generally in situations where the UI design limits the
>> ability of developers to place a visible text label (like a search
>> edit box or controls in a table with row/col headers that serve as
>> 'labels') that a title works adequately.
>> In these situations I am not adversely impacted when the screen
>> reader does not read the title in browse mode.
>> So an off-screen label is not a game changer in these circs. It does
>> not add a whole lot of accessibility benefit.
>> It is like a data table: the screen reader does not speak row/col
>> headers unless one is in table-nav mode.
>> Most screen readers speak the alt for an image in browse mode and do
>> not speak the title for a form control. It has been so always maybe
>> for a reason.
>>
>> If the visible label text is not adequate for non-sighted users,
>> appending off-screen text to the label is fine.
>>
>>>
>>> Even if a label is hidden visually, it's still programmatically
>>> connected
>>>
>>> to
>>> the field, so I don't understand what you mean by this part of your
>>> response
>>> either...
>> Sailesh: Sure, but that association kicks-in only in forms mode and
>> for non-sighted users a label is no different from any other piece of
>> text on the page in non-forms mode.
>>
>> Sailesh Panchang
>> www.deque.com
>> Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105
>>>
>>> Genuinely trying to figure this out and do the right thing!
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Zoe
>>>
>>> Zoe Gillenwater
>>> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
>>> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>>>
>>> o: 919-241-4083
>>> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>
>>> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>>>
>>> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
>>> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
>>> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the named
>>> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received
>>> this
>>> message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
>>> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
>>> dissemination,
>>> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh
>>> Panchang
>>> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:09 AM
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>>
>>> Zoe,
>>> Certainly I have seen that behavior where the screen reader reads the
>>> off-screen label as one is arrowing down the page.
>>> But then one is reading content that is not visually available on the
>>> page and in that mode the label is really not programmatically
>>> associated with the form control.
>>> The user has to use his/her understanding / judgment to make this
>>> determination.
>>> Off-screen text that helps to convey structure / info-relationships
>>> (e.g. headings) when no other cues are available is alright but
>>> otherwise visual content should generally match / be in sync with
>>> screen reader output.
>>>
>>> In forms mode, the title clearly conveys the purpose of the control.
>>> This technique is in line withH65 of WCAG 2 techniques.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Sailesh Panchang
>>> www.deque.com
>>> Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/19/12, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>> Hi Sailesh,
>>>>
>>>> One advantage for hidden labels that I've found when testing the
>>>> difference
>>>> between them and title attributes on form fields is that a few screen
>>>> reader-browser combinations will not read the title text in normal
>>>> reading
>>>> mode, only when focused in the form field. The hidden label always gets
>>>> read
>>>> in both normal and forms reading modes. This seems non-trivial to me,
>>>> as
>>>> hearing label-less form fields announced would be confusing and doesn't
>>>> give
>>>> you the information you need to be able to decide whether you want to
>>>> go
>>>> into forms reading mode. Have you never seen this behavior with title
>>>> text
>>>> in normal reading mode?
>>>>
>>>> I've even seen cases where not only is the title text not announced in
>>>> normal reading mode, but the type of form field is not announced, so
>>>> you
>>>> have no idea anything is even there to enter forms mode for. Granted,
>>>> this
>>>> has only happened to me in older screen readers, but still, it's a
>>>> pretty
>>>> big problem. Again, this is just in normal reading mode--I've had no
>>>> problems with title text in forms reading mode. But because of this,
>>>> using
>>>> regular old labels seems far safer in many contexts. Title text has its
>>>> place too, but I'm starting to think that hidden labels should be the
>>>> technique of first resort (apart from adding visible labels whenever
>>>> possible, of course!).
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to hear differing opinions on this! :-)
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Zoe
>>>>
>>>> Zoe Gillenwater
>>>> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
>>>> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>>>>
>>>> o: 919-241-4083
>>>> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>
>>>> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>>>>
>>>> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
>>>> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
>>>> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the
>>>> named
>>>> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received
>>>> this
>>>> message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
>>>> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
>>>> dissemination,
>>>> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh
>>>> Panchang
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:53 PM
>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>>>
>>>> As per WCAG2 techniques, title on form controls should be used when
>>>> visible label is not present ... i.e. when purpose of form control is
>>>> obvious generally to sighted users / as per UI design.
>>>> (If purpose is not obvious visually, then the fix is to incorporate a
>>>> visual text label for the benefit of all users).
>>>>
>>>> Using title in these situations mainly to convey purpose of control to
>>>> non-sighted users is well supported by browsers and AT, both recent
>>>> and legacy ones.
>>>> Title is also available via mouseover to some sighted users who might
>>>> need them.
>>>> I do not recommend using off-screen label: it is more work and code
>>>> and not available to anyone except screen reader / magnification users
>>>> unless CSS is turned off.
>>>> Sailesh Panchang
>>>> Deque Systems
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/9/12, Michael R. Burks < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>> I would like to add that we should code to the standards, not to a
>>>>> specific
>>>>> type of Assistive Technology.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Burks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Michael R.
>>>>> Burks
>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 7:51 PM
>>>>> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>>>>
>>>>> It has not been my experience that title attributes work well with
>>>>> Dragon
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Burks
>>>>> 919-882-1884 - Fax
>>>>> 919-349-6661 - Office
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Ryan E.
>>>>> Benson
>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:59 PM
>>>>> To: <EMAIL REMOVED> ; WebAIM Discussion List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>>>>
>>>>> Léonie Watson wrote:
>>>>>> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by default,
>>>>>> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> think.
>>>>> ZoomText (v9.5 at least) will read the title attribute instead of the
>>>>> label.
>>>>> The same goes with links with a title attribute, it reads the title
>>>>> versus
>>>>> linking words.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ryan E. Benson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Léonie Watson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>>> Angela French wrote:
>>>>>> " Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text
>>>>>> field and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input>
>>>>>> tag redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would
>>>>>> a screen reader say the word twice?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by default,
>>>>>> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Assuming the label is visible, it's worth asking what value the title
>>>>>> attribute brings in this case?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Léonie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Angela
>>>>>> French
>>>>>> Sent: 09 November 2012 18:22
>>>>>> To: 'WebAim Forum ( <EMAIL REMOVED> )'
>>>>>> Subject: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text field
>>>>>> and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input> tag
>>>>>> redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would a
>>>>>> screen reader say the word twice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Example:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <label for="searchfield" class="offscreen"> Search</label><input
>>>>>> id="searchfield" type="text" title="Search">
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Angela French
>>>>>> Internet Specialist
>>>>>> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
>>>>>> 360-704-4316
>>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>>> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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> > > >