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Re: Is use of <label> and title redundant?

for

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Nov 20, 2012 9:47AM

Bryan,
NVDA reads LABEL element text ... it does not read title when arrowing down.
Sailesh

On 11/19/12, Bryan Garaventa < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Wouldn't this be a bug in NVDA then? It doesn't make sense that, if an
> explicit label is present, that it would not be announced when arrowing.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sailesh Panchang" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 2:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>
>
> Zoe / Bryan,
>
> JAWS does read title in Firefox and IE when arrowing down the page
> (without activating forms mode).
> NVDA does not read the title unless one is in forms mode.
> Using title is simpler as I have maintained all along as compared to
> off-screen label in the situations discussed.
> Failing to markup visible labels as labels and use title instead will
> fail SC 3.3.2.
> It is not alright to simply use title there.
> Sailesh
>
>
> On 11/19/12, Bryan Garaventa < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> When you refer to browse mode, do you mean when using the arrow keys to
>> navigate up and down the page in the Virtual Buffer?
>>
>> When title attributes are included on form fields, I'm hearing these
>> announced correctly as form field labels in addition to tabbing using
>> interactive mode.
>>
>> This can be broken if a title attribute is included on a form field that
>> also includes an explicit label element with matching for and ID
>> attributes
>>
>> in some ATs though.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "GILLENWATER, ZOE M" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>
>>
>> Hi Sailesh,
>>
>> But if you were using visible labels you *would* hear them read in browse
>> mode, so using title text that is not read in browse mode is a different
>> experience from the norm, and it seems to me a worse one.
>>
>> For instance, if I had three fields for month, day, and year of a
>> birthday,
>>
>> and each had a visible label in front of it, I would hear in browse mode
>> something like "Birthday. Month, edit, blank. Day, edit, blank. Year,
>> edit,
>>
>> blank." It's clear to me what those fields are, which allows me to know
>> whether or not I want to enter forms mode and fill out this form.
>>
>> But if I got rid of the visible labels and just used title text, some
>> screen
>>
>> reader users would now hear in browse mode something like "Birthday.
>> Edit,
>> blank. Edit, blank. Edit, blank." You don't think this is a worse
>> experience
>>
>> than the former? Sure, I can guess at what each of those fields is, and
>> have
>>
>> my guess validated when I enter forms mode and finally hear the title
>> text,
>>
>> but why should the user have to do this? Why not just provide hidden
>> labels
>>
>> so they hear the exact same thing they would hear had visible labels been
>> used instead?
>>
>> I still don't see what advantage using title has over a hidden label,
>> apart
>>
>> from:
>> -- it's slightly less bytes of HTML
>> -- it's slightly easier to implement (if you don't already have a hiding
>> CSS
>>
>> class in your CSS, but if you do, creating hidden labels is pretty much
>> just
>>
>> as easy)
>> -- it will show on hover as a tooltip to mouse-using sighted users (which
>> could be seen as a disadvantage by some people in some situations)
>>
>> What am I missing? Are these the only reasons why you find title to be
>> superior?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Zoe
>>
>>
>>
>> Zoe Gillenwater
>> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
>> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>>
>> o: 919-241-4083
>> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>
>> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
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