E-mail List Archives You are here: Home > Community > E-mail List Archives > View Message Re: Table footnotes <tfoot>, <figure> or <section> ? Search E-mail List Archives for From: Chagnon | PubComDate: May 17, 2013 9:45AM Next message: Steve Faulkner: "Re: Table footnotes , or ?" Previous message: Andrews, David B (DEED): "Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA" Next message in Thread: Steve Faulkner: "Re: Table footnotes , or ?" Previous message in Thread: Steve Faulkner: "Re: Table footnotes , or ?" View all messages in this Thread Thanks, Steve. You wrote: "Unclear what your issue is with figure/figcaption, the semantics of the figure element is that its a grouping element." My issue is the choice of the word "figure" for this tag. I can't find any English dictionary reference that defines "figure" as a "group of items." The word figure has quite a few definitions and most of them involve: - Something to do with a numerical symbol or value amount; - Something to do with a person, such as their appearance or standing in society; - A symbol of something. There's no "group" concept in any of the definitions. If you want a tag that groups things, why not call it <GROUP>? Otherwise you might as well randomly choose any word in the dictionary to represent this "grouping element." <CHOCOLATE> would be just as accurate as <FIGURE>. The second issue I have is that the computer industry, especially programmers, takes common words and flips them upside down, using them in ways never intended. This doesn't help the industry. As a former college instructor of several programming languages and technologies, I've watched this confuse the heck out of my students, semester after semester. Example: HTML defined all graphics in a webpage to use the <IMG> tag. I wish a better word had been chosen because "image" is defined as a likeness of something. But it is broad enough that I'm willing to shoehorn every graphic on a webpage into the figure tag. A few years later Adobe created tagged PDFs and instead of coordinating their code with existing HTML tags, they decide to reinvent the wheel and tag every graphic in a PDF as <FIGURE>. Bad decision for 2 reasons: 1. It doesn't coordinate with the existing tag used by HTML. 2. There are many types of graphics that don't fit the definition of a "figure," such as a photograph of a landscape vista. W.T.F. Didn't anyone at Adobe have access to a list of HTML tags or have basic training in HTLM 101? And now you're telling us to use <FIGURE> as a grouping tag. W.T.F. Doesn't anyone on the HTML team have access to a dictionary or thesaurus? Visit the Oxford English Dictionary at http://www.oed.com/ Merriam-Webster is a good all-purpose dictionary at http://www.merriam-webster.com/ And if you're desperate for funds, www.dictionary.com is quite sufficient and free. As I said before: "Never in my editorial mind would I ever call a table a figure, nor the extracted poem in an HTML5 example on the W3C's website. Jeeze Louise, are there any professional editors at the W3C who can step in and say 'that's not the best word for that item'?" Now, if you decide to call this "grouping element" <CHOCOLATE>, you won't get any complaints out of me! <grin> But don't call it <FIGURE>. That's just so wrong on so many levels. -Bevi Chagnon (Programmer, developer, designer, writer, & editor) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers. Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508 Accessibility. New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013. -----Original Message----- From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Steve Faulkner Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 8:49 AM To: WebAIM Discussion List Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Table footnotes <tfoot>, <figure> or <section> ? Hi Bevi, I am one of the editors of the HTML spec [1] Anybody can file a bug [2] against the HTML spec or send an email to the public html comments list [3] if they have constructive input. Unclear what your issue is with figure/figcaption, the semantics of the figure element is that its a grouping element. figcaption allows a programmatically associated caption to be added. images are the obvious use case but others are also covered. If you don't like the idea of using for content other than images then don't. [1] HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/> [2] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=HTML%20WG&component=HTM L5%20spec&priority=P3 [3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/ -- Regards SteveF On 16 May 2013 17:30, Chagnon | PubCom < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote: > Rabab wrote: "...- HTML 5 example specifies <figure> to code table > footnotes. However, we prefer not to use <figure> for data tables. ... > http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/common-idioms.html#footnotes." > > Can't answer your question Rabab, but it brings up another related issue: > the use of one term <FIGURE> in 2 different ways. > > In PDFs, all graphical images are tagged with <FIGURE>. > > But in HTML 5, it's used for any content, not just graphics, that are > related to the main story content. > http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/grouping-content.html#the-figure-element > "some flow content, optionally with a caption, that is self-contained > and is typically referenced as a single unit from the main flow of the document." > > The specific reference above for tables reads: "A figure element is > used to give a single legend to the combination of the table and its footnotes." > > Never in my editorial mind would I ever call a table a figure, nor the > extracted poem in an HTML5 example on the W3C's website. Jeeze Louise, > are there any professional editors at the W3C who can step in and say > "that's not the best word for that item"? > > It would be so helpful to all communities, web developers and document > specialists, if the power players with the W3C could coordinate their > use of the same tag. > > -Bevi Chagnon > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Next message: Steve Faulkner: "Re: Table footnotes , or ?" Previous message: Andrews, David B (DEED): "Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA" Next message in Thread: Steve Faulkner: "Re: Table footnotes , or ?" Previous message in Thread: Steve Faulkner: "Re: Table footnotes , or ?" View all messages in this Thread