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Re: Using has-poppup to affect touch UIs

for

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Dec 13, 2013 10:02AM

>
> I understand, but the screen reader behaviors have to be taken into account
> as well when implementing real world solutions.


of course, but this does not mean features cannot or do not develop/change
over time

--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;


On 13 December 2013 16:55, Bryan Garaventa < <EMAIL REMOVED> >wrote:

> I understand, but the screen reader behaviors have to be taken into account
> as well when implementing real world solutions.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Faulkner" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 8:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Using has-poppup to affect touch UIs
>
>
> > Hi Bryan,
> >
> > note the advice is not set in stone, and can be changed if use cases
> arise
> > as they appear to be.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > SteveF
> > HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
> >
> >
> > On 13 December 2013 16:35, Bryan Garaventa
> > < <EMAIL REMOVED> >wrote:
> >
> >> Actually I had the same question yesterday, and got some confirmation
> >> about
> >> this which I've pasted below. The attribute aria-haspopup should only be
> >> used on menus.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Joseph Scheuhammer" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> To: < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:15 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Using aria-haspopup to simulate hover on touch-enabled
> >> devices
> >> (Windows)
> >>
> >>
> >> > On 2013-12-12 2:09 PM, Bryan Garaventa wrote:
> >> >> One concern I have is that hover can be used for many things, not
> just
> >> >> for menus, and if devs start implementing aria-haspopup on all
> >> >> elements that show hover activity, screen readers like JAWS and NVDA
> >> >> will be announcing "Menu" and "Submenu" everywhere.
> >> >
> >> > Right. The spec states that aria-haspopup is for menus:
> >> > " Indicates that the element has a popup context menu or sub-level
> >> > menu."
> >> >
> >> > I goes on to say that tooltips are not considered popups; tooltips
> >> > generally "pop up" on a mouse hover. That entails that aria-haspopup
> >> > should not be used except to indicate that there is a menu associated
> >> > with the current element.
> >> >
> >> > Is Microsoft applying aria-haspopup to *any* content that can be
> >> > revealed on hover?
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > ;;;;joseph.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > 'A: After all, it isn't rocket science.'
> >> > 'K: Right. It's merely computer science.'
> >> > - J. D. Klaun -
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Steve Faulkner" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 5:00 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Using has-poppup to affect touch UIs
> >>
> >>
> >> > Hi Alastair,
> >> >
> >> > interesting,
> >> >
> >> > However, I know Bryan has done some testing which prompted him to say:
> >> > "The
> >> >> attribute aria-haspopup should only be used on triggering elements
> >> >> that
> >> >> open menus. Otherwise, the presence of the attribute will only
> >> >> misrepresent
> >> >> the popup type to screen reader users." (from
> >> >> http://whatsock.com/tsg/)
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > the aria-haspopup state allows authors to set the MSAA
> >> > STATE_SYSTEM_HASPOPUP "When invoked, the object displays a pop-up menu
> >> > or
> >> > a
> >> > window." [1]
> >> >
> >> > While the ARIA spec does define haspop more explicitly than MSAA, and
> >> > is
> >> > generally treated as an indication of the presence of a menu
> asscoiated
> >> > with the control, it is not always treated as such. For example, using
> >> > JAWS
> >> > if a link has aria-haspopup it announces that the link "has pop up"
> >> rather
> >> > than specifically stating menu/submenu which is the behaviour
> exhibited
> >> > when present on controls and by other AT (not extensively tested).
> >> > "Indicates that the element has a popup context menu or sub-level
> >> > menu."
> >> > [2]
> >> >
> >> > I have a page with some test cases which may be helpful [3].
> >> >
> >> > I would suggest that the expansion of the meaning of aria-haspopup
> >> > should
> >> > be specified (an issue for ARIA 1.1 [4]). I have sent an email to the
> >> > PF
> >> > list in this regard [5]
> >> >
> >> > [1]
> >> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd373609%28v=3dvs.85%29.aspx
> >> > [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-haspopup
> >> > [3] https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/377471/aria-haspopup.html
> >> > [4] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/
> >> > [5]
> >> >
> >>
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2013OctDec/0004.html
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> > Regards
> >> >
> >> > SteveF
> >> > HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 13 December 2013 09:54, Alastair Campbell < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I came across an interesting article from Microsoft about an approach
> >> >> they
> >> >> are taking, "Using aria-haspopup to simulate hover on touch-enabled
> >> >> devices":
> >> >>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/jj152135%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
> >> >>
> >> >> At first glance has-popup appears to be a useful indicator that touch
> >> >> devices could use to trigger the hover-interaction first, and then a
> >> >> second
> >> >> tap activates the control. It would appear to work from that point of
> >> >> view,
> >> >> for things like menus which have on-hover states.
> >> >>
> >> >> However, I know Bryan has done some testing which prompted him to
> say:
> >> >> "The
> >> >> attribute aria-haspopup should only be used on triggering elements
> >> >> that
> >> >> open menus. Otherwise, the presence of the attribute will only
> >> >> misrepresent
> >> >> the popup type to screen reader users." (from
> >> >> http://whatsock.com/tsg/)
> >> >>
> >> >> Does anyone foresee problems with this method, in terms of
> encouraging
> >> >> the
> >> >> use of has-popup for non-accessibility reasons?
> >> >>
> >> >> On the other hand, perhaps it will mean lots more sites will use
> >> >> has-popup,
> >> >> at least somewhat appropriately...?
> >> >>
> >> >> -Alastair
> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >>
> >> > >> > >> > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > >