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Re: Using has-poppup to affect touch UIs

for

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Dec 13, 2013 1:18PM


>
> However, if you want something that works right now, you have to build
> applications that work right now using what is currently available.


sure, so its good to know that there is variability in implementation, as I
pointed out in regards to JAWS and as Alastair pointed out in regards to VO.

The topic of this message isn't regard to standards, but whether
> aria-haspopup works right now for indicating popups that are not related to
> menus. And currently, it's not reliable for this purpose.

Well i respectfully dispute that, as the related article talks about an
additional meaning that Microsoft have assigned to aria-haspopup which is
currently not defined in a standard.

--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;


On 13 December 2013 17:54, Bryan Garaventa < <EMAIL REMOVED> >wrote:

> Granted that's true, and will always be so.
>
> However, if you want something that works right now, you have to build
> applications that work right now using what is currently available.
>
> The topic of this message isn't regard to standards, but whether
> aria-haspopup works right now for indicating popups that are not related to
> menus. And currently, it's not reliable for this purpose.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Faulkner" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 9:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Using has-poppup to affect touch UIs
>
>
> > >
> >> I understand, but the screen reader behaviors have to be taken into
> >> account
> >> as well when implementing real world solutions.
> >
> >
> > of course, but this does not mean features cannot or do not
> develop/change
> > over time
> >
> > --
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > SteveF
> > HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
> >
> >
> > On 13 December 2013 16:55, Bryan Garaventa
> > < <EMAIL REMOVED> >wrote:
> >
> >> I understand, but the screen reader behaviors have to be taken into
> >> account
> >> as well when implementing real world solutions.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Steve Faulkner" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 8:48 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Using has-poppup to affect touch UIs
> >>
> >>
> >> > Hi Bryan,
> >> >
> >> > note the advice is not set in stone, and can be changed if use cases
> >> arise
> >> > as they appear to be.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> > Regards
> >> >
> >> > SteveF
> >> > HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 13 December 2013 16:35, Bryan Garaventa
> >> > < <EMAIL REMOVED> >wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Actually I had the same question yesterday, and got some confirmation
> >> >> about
> >> >> this which I've pasted below. The attribute aria-haspopup should only
> >> >> be
> >> >> used on menus.
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Joseph Scheuhammer" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> >> To: < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> >> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:15 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: Using aria-haspopup to simulate hover on touch-enabled
> >> >> devices
> >> >> (Windows)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > On 2013-12-12 2:09 PM, Bryan Garaventa wrote:
> >> >> >> One concern I have is that hover can be used for many things, not
> >> just
> >> >> >> for menus, and if devs start implementing aria-haspopup on all
> >> >> >> elements that show hover activity, screen readers like JAWS and
> >> >> >> NVDA
> >> >> >> will be announcing "Menu" and "Submenu" everywhere.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Right. The spec states that aria-haspopup is for menus:
> >> >> > " Indicates that the element has a popup context menu or sub-level
> >> >> > menu."
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I goes on to say that tooltips are not considered popups; tooltips
> >> >> > generally "pop up" on a mouse hover. That entails that
> >> >> > aria-haspopup
> >> >> > should not be used except to indicate that there is a menu
> >> >> > associated
> >> >> > with the current element.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Is Microsoft applying aria-haspopup to *any* content that can be
> >> >> > revealed on hover?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > ;;;;joseph.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 'A: After all, it isn't rocket science.'
> >> >> > 'K: Right. It's merely computer science.'
> >> >> > - J. D. Klaun -
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Steve Faulkner" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> >> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> >> Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 5:00 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Using has-poppup to affect touch UIs
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Hi Alastair,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > interesting,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > However, I know Bryan has done some testing which prompted him to
> >> >> > say:
> >> >> > "The
> >> >> >> attribute aria-haspopup should only be used on triggering elements
> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> open menus. Otherwise, the presence of the attribute will only
> >> >> >> misrepresent
> >> >> >> the popup type to screen reader users." (from
> >> >> >> http://whatsock.com/tsg/)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > the aria-haspopup state allows authors to set the MSAA
> >> >> > STATE_SYSTEM_HASPOPUP "When invoked, the object displays a pop-up
> >> >> > menu
> >> >> > or
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > window." [1]
> >> >> >
> >> >> > While the ARIA spec does define haspop more explicitly than MSAA,
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > is
> >> >> > generally treated as an indication of the presence of a menu
> >> asscoiated
> >> >> > with the control, it is not always treated as such. For example,
> >> >> > using
> >> >> > JAWS
> >> >> > if a link has aria-haspopup it announces that the link "has pop up"
> >> >> rather
> >> >> > than specifically stating menu/submenu which is the behaviour
> >> exhibited
> >> >> > when present on controls and by other AT (not extensively tested).
> >> >> > "Indicates that the element has a popup context menu or sub-level
> >> >> > menu."
> >> >> > [2]
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I have a page with some test cases which may be helpful [3].
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I would suggest that the expansion of the meaning of aria-haspopup
> >> >> > should
> >> >> > be specified (an issue for ARIA 1.1 [4]). I have sent an email to
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > PF
> >> >> > list in this regard [5]
> >> >> >
> >> >> > [1]
> >> >> >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd373609%28v=3dvs.85%29.aspx
> >> >> > [2]
> >> >> > http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-haspopup
> >> >> > [3] https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/377471/aria-haspopup.html
> >> >> > [4] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/
> >> >> > [5]
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2013OctDec/0004.html
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Regards
> >> >> >
> >> >> > SteveF
> >> >> > HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On 13 December 2013 09:54, Alastair Campbell < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> I came across an interesting article from Microsoft about an
> >> >> >> approach
> >> >> >> they
> >> >> >> are taking, "Using aria-haspopup to simulate hover on
> touch-enabled
> >> >> >> devices":
> >> >> >>
> >> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/jj152135%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> At first glance has-popup appears to be a useful indicator that
> >> >> >> touch
> >> >> >> devices could use to trigger the hover-interaction first, and then
> >> >> >> a
> >> >> >> second
> >> >> >> tap activates the control. It would appear to work from that point
> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> view,
> >> >> >> for things like menus which have on-hover states.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> However, I know Bryan has done some testing which prompted him to
> >> say:
> >> >> >> "The
> >> >> >> attribute aria-haspopup should only be used on triggering elements
> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> open menus. Otherwise, the presence of the attribute will only
> >> >> >> misrepresent
> >> >> >> the popup type to screen reader users." (from
> >> >> >> http://whatsock.com/tsg/)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Does anyone foresee problems with this method, in terms of
> >> encouraging
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> use of has-popup for non-accessibility reasons?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On the other hand, perhaps it will mean lots more sites will use
> >> >> >> has-popup,
> >> >> >> at least somewhat appropriately...?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> -Alastair
> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >>
> >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >>
> >> > >> > >> > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > >