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Re: ARIA and Label tags both for Error Messages

for

From: ron@ahead.org
Date: Feb 11, 2014 4:01PM

Thanks refer to my other reply to this thread. I will leave the test case to the other experienced members
on this list. I have proved them out at this point and would not have made my statements if they were not
true. Actually we dealt with this today for a client institution and once again replicated the issues with both
highly qualified coders and a couple of very experienced Access Experts. Unfortunately I am unable to since
it would result in conflict of interest because I do not have their permission to a commercial vendor nor to a
list as this one sorry.

We have the same issues within ATHEN in trying to validate product compliance and then develop a
transparent repository that is publicly available for these very sticky problems.

Ron Stewart

> -------Original Message-------
> From: Paul J. Adam < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ARIA and Label tags both for Error Messages
> Sent: Feb 11 '14 17:37
>
> Sure I can qualify what versions... the latest versions and quite some versions back. What ARIA
attribute fails in that version of JAWS? Do you have a test case demo of the failure?
>
> Are you saying that VoiceOver has NO ARIA support or great ARIA support? It's not as good as NVDA
but it's pretty damn good with most but not all attributes being supported. OS X has better ARIA support
with VO than iOS.
>
> Paul J. Adam
> Accessibility Evangelist
> www.deque.com
>
> On Feb 11, 2014, at 4:31 PM, < <EMAIL REMOVED> > < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> > Paul it would be very interesting if you could further qualify you by which versions of these softwares.
From
> > my research and personal experience it highly variable and not true for versions as recent as 12 for
JAWS
> > and totally untrue for VoiceOver.
> >
> > Ron Stewart
> >
> >> -------Original Message-------
> >> From: Paul J. Adam < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ARIA and Label tags both for Error Messages
> >> Sent: Feb 11 '14 17:05
> >>
> >> Not true, WAI-ARIA is well supported in JAWS, NVDA, and VoiceOver... the big 3 screen readers, and
> > only JAWS costs extra money.
> >>
> >> I would ask them for more specific supporting evidence for their claims that ARIA is not supported
well
> > enough, e.g. who what where when and why it fails.
> >>
> >> Yes the redundancy may make it pointless to use ARIA if you're already shoving everything into the
> > label tag? You could try doing ARIA with fallback, i.e. aria-hidden on the extra label text and retain
use of
> > aria-describedby but this seem like double work and not worth it.
> >>
> >> You could also use the title attribute to communicate info both visually as at tooltip and non-visually
to
> > the screen reader. Keyboard-only users without a screen reader will never see/hear the title attributes
> > though.
> >>
> >> Good luck! Myself, I've been using WAI-ARIA for years! It's past time for everyone to get on board :)
> >>
> >>
> >> Paul J. Adam
> >> Accessibility Evangelist
> >> www.deque.com
> >>
> >> On Feb 11, 2014, at 3:48 PM, Susan Grossman < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> We have been associating error messages to form fields using
> >>> aria-describedby, and the screen reader users who tested it thought it
> >>> worked well for them.
> >>>
> >>> We have gotten some push back from a federal agency saying that no ARIA is
> >>> supported well enough to rely on and that we must you both aria and label
> >>> tags to associate the error messages.
> >>>
> >>> My questions:
> >>>
> >>> 1)  Do others agree that even aria-describedby (no Live Regions, etc.)
> >>> isn't supported enough to stand on it's own
> >>>
> >>> 2) Would the redundancy caused by both label tags and aria become too much
> >>> to hear for those who can utilize ARIA?
> >>>
> >>> 3) If yes to 1 and 2, does that leave us with just implementing the
> >>> association with label tags, or is there something else we should be
> >>> considering?
> >>>
> >>> Understand that we can still keep things like aria-required (or similar)
> >>> because they're a progressive enhancement  -   asterisk or (optional) is
> >>> still there in the form element label.
> >>>
> >>> Any help is appreciated - couldn't quite find this discussion in archives
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> *Susan R. Grossman*
> >>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>
> >> > >> > >> > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > >