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Re: Data in tables or lists with accessibility and responsive design in mind


From: Lucy Greco
Date: Feb 11, 2014 5:19PM

Ron I agree that voice over does have problems in this space. But it's
even more tricky then saying it does not work. For example I was working
with a site that used ARIA well and voice over just would not read it.
Turned out because the site also used html 5 vo over rode the ARIA for the
html 5 and the html5 did not have the same property's set so the user did
not get the message and as vo was ignoring the aria things like required
just did not happen. Bad choice on apples part but at often is the problem
to shrug. My next g3ict blog post talks about this

Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu Http://accessaces.com
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

-----Original Message-----
[mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of <EMAIL REMOVED>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 4:10 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Data in tables or lists with accessibility and
responsive design in mind

Once again I am going to speak from the public education space and in
particular from the perspective of
California since it currently is the best exemplar. In most instances they
no longer have funding to maintain
upgrades nor to buy SMA's for products such as JAWS, if the could even get
one in the first place. For
others when categorical funding went away several years ago they lost the
ability to maintain access and
are forced to support JAWS going back to version 7 based on the most current
version. Legally in many
instances they are also forced to be entirely product agnostic in their work
in trying to avoid risk
management issues. Am I supporting this absolutely not, except for product
neutrality which actually is
required in most states by statute. Most of my work is in the area of
recommending unbiased pragmatic
and cost effective advice at the institution or system level.

I will now let you go back to your regular programming. If any wish to
engage in a conversation out of the
public eye please email me privately and I will will love to hear about your
experiences or successes.

Ron Stewart

> -------Original Message-------
> From: Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Data in tables or lists with accessibility and
> responsive design in mind
> Sent: Feb 11 '14 18:25
> I would have a slightly different recommendation. Report bugs to the
> vendors but publish code that
works right now. In my view it is irresponsible to publish code that
*should* work but doesn't. Sadly there
are a number of people who are perfectly happy to publish code that they
know doesn't work, and say it's
not their problem if browsers and ATs don't render that code according to
> In some cases people are using ATs that pre-date the standards, and in
> some cases the standards do
not fully specify what the behaviours of the browsers and ATs should be. Not
everyone can afford to
upgrade to the latest AT version even in the Western world, let alone poorer
parts of the world. And many
people cannot quantify the benefit of a costly upgrade.
> There is a disturbing narcissism in the development community. The most
> important people on any
project are the project owner and the end user. Everything that developers
do should be done with the
intention of supporting them. But some developers, designers and consultants
choose to pursue their own
agenda even when it is not in the best interest of the people they should be
serving. In my view that is not
> Steve Green
> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
Behalf Of Bourne, Sarah (ITD)
> Sent: 11 February 2014 15:20
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Data in tables or lists with accessibility and
> responsive design in mind
> Ben,
> Before settling on the DL approach, you should take a look at a recent
> thread on the W3C WAI
discussion list. This message, in particular, discusses some problems with
how AT has implemented DLs:
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2014JanMar/0031.html
> (See
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2014JanMar/thread.html for
> listing by thread - you
can see that discussion has been lively!)
> While "use the right element for the job and reports bugs to AT vendors"
> is the right thing to do (as is
pointed out someplace in that thread) I think you have some choice in what
the "right" element is, and so
may want to consider how it will actually work for users.
> sb
> Sarah E. Bourne
> Director of Assistive Technology
> Information Technology Division
> Commonwealth of Massachusetts
> 1 Ashburton Pl. rm 1601 Boston MA 02108
> 617-626-4502
> http://www.mass.gov/itd
> [ <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of
ben jarlett [ <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 4:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Data in tables or lists with accessibility and
> responsive design in mind
> Thanks for all the thinking... Yes LĂ©onie that is the catch... I want it
> to work on smaller screen sizes, and
I don't think it'll work on a phone in a table... so I'm gonna go with the
DL suggestion and tableish styling
for large screen display. :)
> > > messages to webaim-
> > > >