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Re: Untagged PDF doc with table structure

for

From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Feb 19, 2015 10:44PM

This will be my final note on this thread, since I have gotten a number of
personal notes regarding my comments. My point is simply this: while
inDesign can make accessible PDFs, it is no where near being user friendly.
Adding somebody's lack of knowledge of accessibility, just compounds the
issue some magnitude I don't know how to compute. Also, adding to the pile
that a fair number of graphic artists I have worked see accessibility "not
their issue." I know that this is something different in itself.

Bevi said:
> Since version 5.5, there's been no need to use the structure pane for
accessible PDFs from InDesign.

then

>The articles panel isn't very helpful in most documents, like long docs.
>You have to watch your story threading, anchored objects and layers
throughout to get the correct tag structure, but that's just InDesign 101
that you should be doing anyway.
>If you've used InDesign's tools correctly, the tag order will follow
exactly what you've laid out.

If I missed something, please let me know. There are two ways to effect the
output, the structure pane and the articles pane. So post 5.5, the
structure pane doesn't need to be used, but usually the articles pane isn't
helpful? So what should be used to determine the output without making and
double checking the PDF? While it has been over a year since I read stuff,
most documentation I read basically said not to touch the structure pane,
only the articles pane. I found one tutorial that had step-by-step
instructions. Following these, I think I gave myself score in the 70s.
Trying myself, the score was much worse. Scrapping the new method, and
using the structure pane, it was in the low 90s - which is the norm for me,
since there is always something needing a tweak in Acrobat.

> Edition #46 February-March 2012 at www.InDesignMagazine.com
I get a "buy this domain" type page for the linkk.

--
Ryan E. Benson

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 11:33 PM, Chagnon | PubCom < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
wrote:

> No, not entirely.
> The articles panel isn't very helpful in most documents, like long docs.
> You have to watch your story threading, anchored objects and layers
> throughout to get the correct tag structure, but that's just InDesign 101
> that you should be doing anyway.
> If you've used InDesign's tools correctly, the tag order will follow
> exactly what you've laid out.
> Using the structure pane is a royal pain, as in PITA. It drops XML tags
> into the document which then get royally botched as normal copy/paste
> editing actions are done during production. And what a slowdown on the
> computer!
>
> IMHO, that's a pretty lousy way to use InDesign! For XML, yes, which is
> what it was designed to do. But that overhead isn't needed for accessible
> PDFs. I'd rather do other things with my time than wait from my 500-page
> government document to refresh the structure pane!
>
> --Bevi Chagnon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
> <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 10:43 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Untagged PDF doc with table structure
>
> > Since version 5.5, there's been no need to use the structure pane for
> accessible PDFs from InDesign.
>
> Bevi, I think what you are saying is that you can use the articles pane
> and not worry about the structure pane as the article pane sets the content
> order and that's all that really matters sense the nested isn't needed.
> While that may be generally true I find it helpful to see the structure
> panel and the tags that will be generated as it gives me an idea of the
> order of show each element -- perhaps I'm just use to it though.
>
> Jonathan
>
> --
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> SSB BART Group
> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>
> 703-637-8957 (o)
> Follow us: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn | Blog | Newsletter
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
> <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Chagnon | PubCom
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 10:34 PM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Untagged PDF doc with table structure
>
> Since version 5.5, there's been no need to use the structure pane for
> accessible PDFs from InDesign. Just use the tools built into current
> versions of InDesign. It's worth upgrading to the latest version of
> InDesign, ver. CS 2014, because the export of accessible PDFs is more
> accurate. You're spending an awful lot more labor doing it the old way with
> an outdated version of the software.
>
> Accessible PDFs don't need a nested, XML-like structure because at this
> time, the PDF's tag tree is read sequentially, so which tag is nested
> inside which is ignored by screen readers and other AT.
>
> You can read a detailed tutorial I wrote for InDesign Magazine a few years
> ago for step-by-step instructions: Edition #46 February-March 2012 at
> www.InDesignMagazine.com Today's InDesign creates a more accurate PDF
> now than when I wrote this article, but the steps and tools remain the same.
>
> Repeating what I wrote in a previous post regarding tags from InDesign:
>
> In InDesign, certain tags must be set in the export tag options for each
> Paragraph Style:
> Headings 1 through 6.
> Artifacts (for text).
> For everything else, leave the export tag options set to Auto. Auto does
> recognize:
> - Tables (and if you've set repeating headers, it will put in the
> TH tag).
> - Lists, both numbered and bulleted, as long as you've formatted
> them with a paragraph style setting bullets/numbers. No hand formatting.
> - Hyperlinks if you've used the hyperlink utility.
> - TOCs if you've used InDesign's TOC utility.
> - Figures (add the Alt-text through the Object Export Options
> utility or through Adobe Bridge).
> - And pretty much the core of any InDesign document.
>
> Except for grouped items, anchored text frames, un-hyperlinked footnotes,
> un-hyperlinked indexes, and a whole lot more advanced features, the basics
> of an InDesign document are tagged correctly in the PDF.
>
> And I have a hands-on class in creating accessible InDesign layouts & PDFs
> in a few weeks. Two seats are available for online distance learners.
> Contact me off-list if you'd like more information.
>
> --Bevi Chagnon
>
> — — —
> Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
> Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers For publishing
> technologies
> | Acrobat PDF | Digital Media | XML and Automated Workflows GPO | Print
> | | Desktop Publishing | Sec. 508 Accessibility | EPUBs
> — — —
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
> <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Ryan E. Benson
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 8:48 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Untagged PDF doc with table structure
>
> >Which makes 20. There are a number of inline styles that aren't
> supported (e.g. code, quote) and there may be others that are supported
> that I'm not sure of (e.g. TOC).
> >I think that the situation is a little better than you are characterizing.
>
> I haven't dug around in the new docs, but the old documents said, to
> quickly know what tags INDD will reliably carry over to a PDF is to run the
> untagged items via the structure pane. This gives you P H
> H1-H6
> Article
> Artifact
> Root/Document
>
> Other things like tables and lists were kind of a flip of a coin. I
> noticed better support for lists in CS6, but this is akin to "don't worry
> about it, just trust us." However, I will mention that if you click the
> list icon, it will be brought over as a list. You cannot do this with
> headings from what I can tell, and didn't touch tables. Working with
> graphic artists, they are less likely to do this, because 1- their formal
> training didn't cover this
> - not Adobe's fault. 2- they only have a few days to do a job, so setting
> up stuff on every project is beyond a chore.
>
> --
> Ryan E. Benson
>
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 4:50 PM, Andrew Kirkpatrick < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
>
> > Ryan,
> > Comments below.
> >
> > I was trying to cut out the jargon. Most people do not know there are
> > styles and tags within inDesign, in my experience. If they just make a
> > style, and lazily name it h1, that gets exported and mapped to P - in
> > the two sample files I tried - in CS6. The user has 3 options. 1-
> > properly named styles. 2- Open up the style, choose the right tag via
> > export tag options. 3- open the tags pane, use the map styles to tags
> > option, and map it. This assumes the user opened up the structure
> > pane, and used the "add untagged items" option. This also creates the
> > known tags to inDesign - which is 9.
> >
> > > InDesign supports a a lot of standard PDF tags.
> > 9 of 34 is 26%. Not sure if you call that a lot. Now if a user sets up
> > their document properly, and use the built in features, of course that
> > goes up. In my experience, working with designers, who have a degree,
> > and trained inDesign, don't do or know this.
> >
> > Off hand I count:
> > P
> > H
> > H1
> > H2
> > H3
> > H4
> > H5
> > H6
> > TABLE
> > THEAD
> > TBODY
> > TR
> > TH
> > TD
> > LIST
> > LI
> > SPAN
> > Document
> > Article
> > Section
> >
> >
> > Which makes 20. There are a number of inline styles that aren't
> > supported (e.g. code, quote) and there may be others that are
> > supported that I'm not sure of (e.g. TOC).
> >
> > I think that the situation is a little better than you are
> characterizing.
> >
> > AWK
> >
> > --
> > Ryan E. Benson
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 6:13 PM, Olaf Drümmer < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Ryan,
> > >
> > > On 18 Feb 2015, at 23:50, Ryan E. Benson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > InDesign only recognizes a handful of standard PDF tags. I can't
> > > > find the list right now, but I am pretty sure it is in the help.
> > > > InDesign knows <Table>, <Tr> and <Td>, for example, but not <TH>
> > > > or something like
> > > that.
> > >
> > > it does handle <TH> quite well (at least for column headers).
> > >
> > > > PDF tags are case sensitive, so if you create an h1 Tag for your
> > > > inDesign document, it gets mapped to the <P> tag in the PDF.
> > > > However, creating the
> > > > H1 tag in inDesign, it correctly gets mapped to H1 in the PDF.
> > >
> > > nope. What you actually do is do assign a certain tag to your style
> > > sheet which then gets used during export (and via role mapping in
> > > the resulting PDF. The list offered here consists of only H1 through
> > > H6 and P (yep, that's it, except for <H> which you do not want to
> > > use, and
> > 'Artifact'
> > > which is not a tag, but can be handy at times). Most other stuff is
> > > just handled properly by Indesign, at least for stuff like lists and
> > > tables (with some limitations - e.g. no row headers, no complex
> > > table
> > > structures) and footnotes and figures and links and (CS 6 or newer)
> > > form
> > fields.
> > >
> > > Some of the glaring omissions are lack of support for table of
> > > contents (TOC / TOCI), something as easy as Caption, or BlockQuote,
> > > Quote, Formula (accompanied by lack of support for something like
> > MathML) and a few others.
> > >
> > > So the statement
> > > > InDesign only recognizes a handful of standard PDF tags.
> > >
> > > has to be turned into its opposite:
> > > > InDesign supports a a lot of standard PDF tags.
> > >
> > > with the following addition:
> > > > With some very unfortunate [seemingly easy to implement/support]
> > > omissions, like support for Caption, or BlockQuote, Quote, Formula
> > > and a few others.
> > >
> > >
> > > Olaf
> > >
> > >
> > > > > > > > > list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > >
> > > > > > list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > > > > > list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >
> > > messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>
> > > messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > > >
> > > >