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Re: clarification please -> PDF/UA

for

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Feb 26, 2015 5:51AM


> Yet a bunch of what WCAG recommends could easily be classified as out of scope (scripting, captions, embedded media, etc.),

I have PDF with all of these components in them -- so they are definitely not out of scope -- just maybe not as common.

> II doubt I'm not the only one raising an eyebrow that an organization that advocates against endorsing software or using blatant superlatives uses screenshots of proprietary software and publicly claims "On the Home ribbon, use the lists tools to create or repair lists in Word documents. This is the easiest way to ensure that lists are formatted correctly when they are converted to PDF.".

I don't consider this an endorsement. The fact is many if not most people are using Word, InDesign, and Acrobat at some point in the process to create tagged PDF content These tools are also something that people are familiar with and not providing steps to use them would be more harmful. If you feel additional software such as LibreOffice or Nuance PDF Creator Pro should be listed by all means submit a pull request to have those added to the github repository.

Jonathan

--
Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group
<EMAIL REMOVED>

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-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Jon Metz
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 2:40 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] clarification please -> PDF/UA

Hi John,

One of the problems with relying on proprietary software to check for accessibility is that the errors checked are based on to their opinions.
Current Section 508 means Acrobat or Microsoft only needed to follow bare minimum rules, despite ISO 32000 as explained Tagged PDFs since 2008 (in the open).

Truthfully, PDFs have been treated like that special kid sitting in the corner eating paste (ah, memories) for way too long. The less support that was made available to it, the easier it was to hate and be regarded as a troublemaker of all the other formats. Unfortunately, clients still used them and have been posting garbage for while.

When clients started turning to WCAG for answers is probably when Acrobat and MS Word started tying those rules into their automated checkers. Yet a bunch of what WCAG recommends could easily be classified as out of scope (scripting, captions, embedded media, etc.), so there hasn't really been much change aside from cleaning up the UI a bit.

I'm probably a bit more paranoid than others in this field, but the fact that the W3C gives "high marks" to software that is owned by two of it's members isn't really all that surprising. I doubt I'm not the only one raising an eyebrow that an organization that advocates against endorsing software or using blatant superlatives uses screenshots of proprietary software and publicly claims "On the Home ribbon, use the lists tools to create or repair lists in Word documents. This is the easiest way to ensure that lists are formatted correctly when they are converted to PDF.".

In fact, I suggested a couple years ago to modify the technique language to reflect existing standards ( https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/2013Sep/0007.html).
Their response amounted to refusing to adhere to a specification based on their opinion of value, adding that they were nice enough to include a copy of the specs for further reading.

There will be people here who will tell you that PDF/UA (ISO 14289) is good because it will force software developers to make more accessible PDFs, essentially making less work for you. I'm confident that Adobe and Microsoft are probably already working on something that will make these bad rockets. However, I still believe there will be many people who just hit 'Print' on their Macs and pass that off as an accessible document continuing work for people like me, so it'll be important to know what to do when it happens.

You're notion that PDF/UA is a "higher" standard is rather astute, but I disagree that it's a bad thing. It means that if people will want to continue to use a filetype they've been using, they're gonna need to start making it accessible like everything else they put online. They can't continue using the lame excuse that it sucks because it was underfunded and came from a broken family (I'm looking at you, Flash...). The purpose is to set out to make a standard.

And just an aside, you should know better than to rely on automated testing! Tsk tsk.

— Jon


On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 3:27 PM, John E Brandt < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> So, I was going to ask the group if the Accessibility Checker built
> into Adobe Acrobat Pro (AAP) would accurately assess a file for PDF/UA.
> According
> to the information Olaf provided from the PDF Association, the answer
> is no and that the only validator that does this kind of assessment is the PAC:
> PDF Accessibility Checker (v2.0). So I checked it out with document
> that was initially a VERY simple MS-Word documents (no tables, simple
> text, a few links and one in-line image) that had been converted using
> the SaveAs PDF utility. It passed the Accessibility Checker in MS Word
> (latest version) and essentially passed the accessibility checker in
> AAP - I had to manually add the Title even though it was there in the
> MS-Word version (I think this is a
> bug) and verify "manually" that the word order was correct and
> contrast ratio sufficient. But the PAC found a number of errors thus
> deeming the document NOT to be PDF/UA compliant. Interestingly, one of the "errors"
> noted by PAC was the fact that the PDF/UA identifier was missing!
>
> The WC3's document "PDF Techniques for WCAG 2.0"
> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20-TECHS/pdf.html gives high marks to
> both MS-Word and AAP as the tools to use. Apparently the PDF/UA is a
> "higher" - and perhaps unattainable standard. Clearly I can't figure
> out a way to meet this standard with any of the tools I have.
>
> So, I guessing that this is bad news if Section 508 Refresh is going
> to require the ISO 32000-1 (PDF/UA-1) standard...
>
> ~j
>
> John E. Brandt
> jebswebs: accessible and universal web design, development and
> consultation <EMAIL REMOVED>
> 207-622-7937
> Augusta, Maine, USA
>
> @jebswebs
> www.jebswebs.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Olaf
> Drümmer
> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 5:13 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] clarification please -> PDF/UA
>
> You can find am introduction to PDF/UA, called "PDF/UA in a nutshell",
> on the website of the PDF Association at:
>
> PDF/UA in a Nutshell | PDF Association
> http://www.pdfa.org/publication/pdfua-in-a-nutshell/
>
> The download link for the "PDF/UA in a nutshell" PDF is at the bottom
> of that page.
>
>
> If you wanted to get a feel for PDF/UA conforming documents, there are
> a couple of decent example documents in the form of the "PDF/UA
> Reference Suite" (as a free download) at
>
> PDF/UA Reference Suite | PDF Association
> http://www.pdfa.org/publication/pdfua-reference-suite/
>
>
> In case you really wanted to drill down into the rules that make
> PDF/UA what it is, in a form that is still relatively formal and
> technical, but not as dense as the ISO standard itself, have a look at
> the Matterhorn protocol:
>
> The Matterhorn Protocol 1.02 | PDF Association
> http://www.pdfa.org/publication/the-matterhorn-protocol-1/
>
>
> Olaf
>
>
> On 20 Feb 2015, at 21:33, Jon Metz < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> > Hi Lucy,
> >
> > The term, "Accessible PDF", is left up to interpretation. Some view
> > this as simply having a tagged PDF. Others argue that it has
> > something to do with the Reading Order pane of Acrobat. Still others
> > insist that the only way to do it is to simply rely on Microsoft
> > Word or InDesign to magically create one for you. Regardless, it's
> > anyone's guess as to
> what it is.
> >
> > ISO 14289 is a standard by which people can agree that certain
> > provisions will be met to ensure that a PDF is accessible according
> > to the capabilities of ISO 32000 (which governs PDF). It basically
> > says, these are all the things we're committing our PDFs to do and
> > when we use technology that conforms to those standards, then we can
> > assume it'll work appropriately.
> >
> > So, because Accessible PDF is an opinion of the amount of work it
> > takes to make something like that accessible and PDF UA is an
> > agreement between a file and conforming reader of that filetype,
> > then yes
> it is more accessible.
> >
> > Jon Metz
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 1:26 PM, Lucy Greco < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >
> >> OK after reading through the thread about the 508 refresh i think
> >> i need a clarification. could some one please explain the
> >> difference between pdf and pdf UA and is UA really more accessible then PDF.
> >> i have not delved in to the UA pdf before as its out of my scope
> >> but maybe i need to smile Lucy Lucia Greco Web Accessibility
> >> Evangelist IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> >> University of California, Berkeley
> >> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> >> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> >> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> >> > >> > >> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>
> > > > > > list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>
> > > list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>
> > > list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>