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Re: Alerts for edits and deletions (wasFocus on adding/removing items)

for

From: Lynn Holdsworth
Date: Mar 26, 2015 11:37AM


Apologies Jonathan, I should have been clearer. I mean that we had
problems getting VoiceOver on iOS to read out messages that were
contained in ARIA alerts, status messages or live regions when we used
the Snook method to hide content off-screen.

More info on the Snook method here:
http://snook.ca/archives/html_and_css/hiding-content-for-accessibility

Best, Lynn

On 26/03/2015, Jonathan Avila < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> iOS devices don't seem to speak ARIA messages when the containing element
>> is hidden.
>
> I just created a quick test for input and links with aria-labelledby and
> aria-describedby content that is not displayed via display:none and both
> were announced by VoiceOver on iOS when swiping to the control.
>
> The ARIA spec allows for these properties to reference content that can be
> hidden although I don't think it's a good idea. For example, while this
> information is announced on tab by Windows screen readers it isn't seen in
> the virtual cursor or browse mode cursor.
>
> Jonathan
>
> --
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> SSB BART Group
> <EMAIL REMOVED>
> Phone 703.637.8957
> Follow us: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn | Blog | Newsletter
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf
> Of Lynn Holdsworth
> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 10:51 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Alerts for edits and deletions (was Re: Focus on
> adding/removing items)
>
> Hi Rob,
> I worked on a high-profile contract last year (sadly under NDA), where we
> discovered that iOS devices don't seem to speak ARIA messages when the
> containing element is hidden.
>
> Best, Lynn
>
> On 26/03/2015, Robert Fentress < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> It's funny, Lynn: There is another recent post on the list ("Hidden
>> Items read out by Voiceover and Talkback") that seems to be saying the
>> opposite--namely, that VO on iOS and Talkback on Android are reading
>> stuff that should not be read. I haven't played around with it enough
>> to say what the conditions are that make the difference, but now I'm
>> curious. I'll have to do some experimentation. :-)
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 9:00 AM, Lynn Holdsworth
>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>> Rob, I think if an item were added to the list it would probably be
>>> enough to move the focus to the newly-added item. For deletions I
>>> personally would find it useful to hear a short message saying "item
>>> deleted".
>>>
>>> The problem with hiding messages like this off-screen is that iOS
>>> devices tend not to read invisible text.
>>>
>>> Best, Lynn
>>>
>>> On 26/03/2015, Robert Fentress < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>> Lynn, related to the "empty list" alert, what about alerts for other
>>>> changes to the list? For instance, would it be best practice to
>>>> have ARIA alerts triggered whenever something was added or removed
>>>> from the list as well? These probably shouldn't be visible alerts
>>>> (though I'm open to arguments as to why they should be), but, for
>>>> users who are blind, they may serve as useful confirmation that
>>>> their action was successful. I could also see, though, how this
>>>> might be viewed as unnecessarily verbose.
>>>>
>>>> What do you folks think about the use of ARIA alerts in instances
>>>> like these?
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Rob
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Lynn Holdsworth
>>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm watching this thread with interest.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would argue that this is an accessibility rather than a usability
>>>>> issue, since the loss of focus is likely to cause blind users not
>>>>> to be sure where they are in the page, and keyboard users to take
>>>>> significantly longer to achieve their goal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Invaluable though the guidelines are, I think that concentrating
>>>>> solely on these puts developers and designers at a dangerous remove
>>>>> from what accessibility aims to achieve: i.e. making it possible
>>>>> for the huge number of people who would otherwise be disadvantaged
>>>>> to buy, sell, read, contribute to, learn from, or use the products
>>>>> or services being offered by the website or app they're creating.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Google Drive approach seems to work quite well. I've seen a
>>>>> model where the container is injected with hidden text saying "Empty
>>>>> list".
>>>>> I personally find this little message very useful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best, Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> On 25/03/2015, Robert Fentress < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>>> Whitney and Cliff, thanks for your takes on the issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While it is true that usability is what we should focus on, I have
>>>>>> had the reaction of "Well, that's just a usability problem," and,
>>>>>> because it isn't specifically addressed by a success criterion, it
>>>>>> is not given priority as something that needs to be fixed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've looked at a couple of other examples to help in analyzing the
>>>>>> issue, and I'll share what I've found in case it is of value to
>>>>>> others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the Windows File Explorer in Detail View, if you have a list of
>>>>>> files, and you delete one, focus shifts to the next file in the list.
>>>>>> If you delete the last file in the list, but there are still files
>>>>>> left, focus shifts to the new last item in the list. If there is
>>>>>> only one file left and you delete that, focus shifts to the first
>>>>>> column header in the file list pane.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Google Drive, the pattern is the same, except when the last
>>>>>> item is deleted, focus shifts to the file list pane as a whole,
>>>>>> since the column headings disappear when the last file is removed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the moment, I think I like the pattern Google Drive uses here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 9:18 AM, Cliff Tyllick < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Well said, Whitney!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that's the kind of solution we can inspire when we frame the
>>>>>>> issue as a barrier to usability rather than the failure of a
>>>>>>> checkpoint or success criterion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We will have to qualify the conditions under which the barrier
>>>>>>> exists—for example, when reading the page through a certain
>>>>>>> technology; or, as in this case, when human—but in doing so we
>>>>>>> establish conditions that must be met if the project is to
>>>>>>> succeed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Read through Whitney's answer again and I think you'll see how
>>>>>>> focusing on what success would look like, not on the rule that we
>>>>>>> failed, led directly to specific qualities the product must have
>>>>>>> if it is to pass QA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cliff Tyllick
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent
>>>>>>> messages are its fault.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 25, 2015, at 7:18 AM, Whitney Quesenbery
>>>>>>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Where should the focus go: In the least disruptive place for the
>>>>>>>> user:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Causes the least redisplay of the page or movement within it
>>>>>>>> - Leaves them in familiar place, so they can maintain
>>>>>>>> orientation
>>>>>>>> - Does not disrupt the task flow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Typically, this should be either the item above or below the one
>>>>>>>> just deleted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are patterns for this sort of list management, even
>>>>>>>> without a visible "x" button to delete the item. I've seen it
>>>>>>>> done both ways, and I've seen programs that are smart enough to
>>>>>>>> move through a list as items are being deleted adjusting to
>>>>>>>> whether the user is moving up or down in the list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The usability problem is that if the list is being read top to
>>>>>>>> bottom, the familiar location is the item above, but this causes
>>>>>>>> extra navigation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Example. Consider this list:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Item One
>>>>>>>> Item Two
>>>>>>>> Item Three to be deleted
>>>>>>>> Item Four
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the user is tabbing (or using ArrowDown) through the list and
>>>>>>>> deletes Item Three, then Item Four is the next logical point for
>>>>>>>> the focus to land, following the navigation direction. If they
>>>>>>>> are using Shift-Tab or ArrowUp the reverse is true.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A visual reader is not thrown back to the top of the page, and
>>>>>>>> neither should the non-visual interaction.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The usability of the visual experience depends on how smoothly
>>>>>>>> the program manages the visual transition. In the example above,
>>>>>>>> Item Four should be able to slide up into position without
>>>>>>>> disturbing the visual display above the deleted item. The same
>>>>>>>> should be true for a non-visual user.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 2:30 PM Cliff Tyllick
>>>>>>>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rob, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the
>>>>>>>>> problem is that loss of focus is not addressed by the
>>>>>>>>> guidelines.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Focus order is (SC 2.4.3). Focus visibility is (SC 2.4.7). But
>>>>>>>>> not the simple case of, "Oops, nothing to focus on, so let's
>>>>>>>>> take it again from the top!"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I guess we could stretch SC 2.4.8, Location, to cover loss of
>>>>>>>>> focus.
>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>> you can't find the focus, you can't tell where you are in the
>>>>>>>>> page.
>>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>> that's Level AAA, and this seems like a Level A problem to me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Worse yet, no matter what success criterion I select for
>>>>>>>>> failing this Web content, it won't be a clear fit. And that
>>>>>>>>> means I could expect pushback from whoever I must tell, "Keep
>>>>>>>>> working. This isn't good enough."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The problem is that we're trying to turn accessibility into a
>>>>>>>>> one-size-fits-all checklist. That's a problem because a
>>>>>>>>> checklist can't easily accommodate loose ends, and
>>>>>>>>> accessibility has many. And it's also a problem because the
>>>>>>>>> items we're using for checkpoints—the success criteria—are
>>>>>>>>> meant to document ways to succeed, not to pinpoint every
>>>>>>>>> possible way to fail.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So what can we measure against? Instead of details, why not
>>>>>>>>> focus on the big picture? Use performance objectives:
>>>>>>>>> • A person who is blind must be able to perceive, operate, and
>>>>>>>>> understand this Web page and its contents.
>>>>>>>>> • A person who has low moderate vision must be able to
>>>>>>>>> perceive, operate, and understand this Web page and its
>>>>>>>>> contents.
>>>>>>>>> • A person who is deaf must be able to perceive, operate, and
>>>>>>>>> understand this Web page and its contents.
>>>>>>>>> • And so on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Guidelines and Success Criteria could then be used as
>>>>>>>>> intended—as information to help project teams figure out likely
>>>>>>>>> solutions, not as absolute measures of sufficient
>>>>>>>>> accessibility.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The ultimate measure of accessibility, then, would be a
>>>>>>>>> usability test by people for whom the feature being tested
>>>>>>>>> might be a barrier.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Whether I could find a Success Criterion we could use to fail
>>>>>>>>> an inaccessible feature would be irrelevant. I would just need
>>>>>>>>> to note that our tester found it inaccessible and point the
>>>>>>>>> project team to information that might help them solve the
>>>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because the big picture isn't that you should be able to
>>>>>>>>> complete some kind of paperwork to document that your site is
>>>>>>>>> accessible. The big picture is that your customers should find
>>>>>>>>> your content fully usable, regardless of their ability—so
>>>>>>>>> usable that they never realize that you had to remove a barrier
>>>>>>>>> that would have hindered them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cliff Tyllick
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>> Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent
>>>>>>>>> messages are its fault.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Robert Fentress via WebAIM-Forum
>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Sarah. Your analysis is helpful.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I agree that it is a usability issue, though, of course, it
>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>>>>> implications for accessibility. For instance, as you suggest,
>>>>>>>>>> if an interaction causes focus to be lost entirely or causes
>>>>>>>>>> it to go to the
>>>>>>>>> top
>>>>>>>>>> of the page, requiring the user to navigate back to a widget
>>>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>>> start
>>>>>>>>>> of the page, I would think this would be very problematic. My
>>>>>>>>>> first thought was that this would cause a page to violate
>>>>>>>>>> "WCAG 3.2.2 On
>>>>>>>>> Input" (
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#consistent-behavior-unpredictable
>>>>>>>>>> -change), since this would count as an unexpected change of
>>>>>>>>>> context ( http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#context-changedef).
>>>>>>>>>> However, the Understanding SC 3.2.2 working group note (
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/consistent-behavior-
>>>>>>>>> unpredictable-change.html)
>>>>>>>>>> indicates that activating a button is specifically excluded
>>>>>>>>>> from the list of things counting as "Changing the setting of
>>>>>>>>>> any user interface component." Would a page that did this
>>>>>>>>>> technically violate any WCAG
>>>>>>>>>> 2.0
>>>>>>>>>> standard that you are aware of? Perhaps SC 3.2.5 would be
>>>>>>>>>> relevant (
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/consistent-behavior-
>>>>>>>>>> no-
>>>>>>>>> extreme-changes-context.html)?
>>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I ask because I am performing an internal review of a
>>>>>>>>>> third-party web application for accessibility and in several
>>>>>>>>>> instances focus is lost in this way. In my report, I would
>>>>>>>>>> rather have some specific success criterion to point to, so it
>>>>>>>>>> is not just my opinion about a usability issue.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, I would like to be able to recommend what the best
>>>>>>>>>> practice would
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> in these sorts of situations. Right now, I'm thinking the
>>>>>>>>>> best algorithm for deletions would be set focus to the grouped
>>>>>>>>>> item immediately
>>>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>>>>> the item deleted (after a confirmation dialog, which I left
>>>>>>>>>> out to
>>>>>>>>> simplify
>>>>>>>>>> the example), unless there are no more items in the list, in
>>>>>>>>>> which case, focus should be set on the add button. We don't
>>>>>>>>>> have the resources to do formal usability testing, so I kind
>>>>>>>>>> of have to run the scenario in my own head. Here is my
>>>>>>>>>> thinking:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> After deleting an item, what is the user most likely to want to
>>>>>>>>>> do?
>>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>> might be most reasonable to assume that they want to do
>>>>>>>>>> something with
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> next item in the list. What could they do? Well, in the
>>>>>>>>>> example given, they could read the link text, follow the link
>>>>>>>>>> text to view or edit the details of the item (unspecified, but
>>>>>>>>>> assumed), or delete the item.
>>>>>>>>>> So,
>>>>>>>>>> focusing on the item as a whole, rather than on any component
>>>>>>>>>> within it might be the best balance of directed guidance and
>>>>>>>>>> flexibility.
>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>> might also want to add an item, of course, but moving the
>>>>>>>>>> focus there
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> seem to be more disruptive, and require more navigation to get
>>>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>> things the user might want to do. Focus could also be moved
>>>>>>>>>> to the main container for the items, $("#items"), but, again
>>>>>>>>>> this seems to be disruptive, in that it moves the user further
>>>>>>>>>> away from where they were
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>> the initiation of the delete action.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Bourne, Sarah (ITD) <
>>>>>>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Rob,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Where the focus should go is more a usability issue than an
>>>>>>>>> accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>> requirement per se, and may requiring some testing by users
>>>>>>>>>>> to see if you've got it right. As a general rule, you want
>>>>>>>>>>> to put focus back to where the user was in the flow of the
>>>>>>>>>>> page. If it goes to the top of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> page, for instance, a keyboard-only user would have to tab
>>>>>>>>>>> all the way
>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>>>> to "items" to continue item management.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Since you can't put them back on the delete button once an
>>>>>>>>>>> item is deleted, perhaps it could be replaced with a
>>>>>>>>>>> confirmation statement
>>>>>>>>> (maybe
>>>>>>>>>>> with an un-do action even) that the item was deleted. Lacking
>>>>>>>>>>> that, I
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>> think it should go to the next element - the next item link
>>>>>>>>>>> if there is one, or to the add item button. But user testing
>>>>>>>>>>> might show that taking them to the top of the list when at
>>>>>>>>>>> the end is more useful.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I can't speak to exactly which ARIA attributes you should
>>>>>>>>>>> use, but I agree with Birkir that using list elements for the
>>>>>>>>>>> items would improve usability, and you would need something
>>>>>>>>>>> so the list and count is updated when items have been added
>>>>>>>>>>> or deleted.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> sb
>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah E. Bourne
>>>>>>>>>>> Director of IT Accessibility, MassIT Commonwealth of
>>>>>>>>>>> Massachusetts
>>>>>>>>>>> 1 Ashburton Pl. rm 1601 Boston MA 02108
>>>>>>>>>>> 617-626-4502
>>>>>>>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.mass.gov/MassIT
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Robert
>>>>>>>>>>> Fentress
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 11:00 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Focus on adding/removing items
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Another option might be to have a separate element that had
>>>>>>>>> role="alert",
>>>>>>>>>>> which was updated every time something was added or removed
>>>>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>>> item
>>>>>>>>>>> list. For instance, if you remove an item, you could have
>>>>>>>>>>> the alert
>>>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>>>>>> "Item deleted," or, if added "item added."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:46 AM, Robert Fentress
>>>>>>>>>>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for letting me know. Here is a link to the picture:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8U0tKKO3WMWVGptUDhfMnhKSk0
>>>>>>>>>>>> /view?usp>>>>>>>>>>>> sharing
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Bourne, Sarah (ITD) <
>>>>>>>>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rob,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Attached images don't make it through on this list service.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there someplace you can post the image so you can give a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> URL instead?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sb
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah E. Bourne
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Director of IT Accessibility, MassIT Commonwealth of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Massachusetts
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 Ashburton Pl. rm 1601 Boston MA 02108
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 617-626-4502
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.mass.gov/MassIT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Robert
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fentress
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 9:04 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Focus on adding/removing items
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Birkir,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your response.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since the delete button is within the item being removed, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't keep it on that delete button. Do you mean I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should move it to the delete button in the other item?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, what about live regions? Would this be an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> appropriate use case for those and, if so, what attribute
>>>>>>>>>>>>> values should I apply for aria-live, aria-atomic, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> aria-relevant?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there a set of standards or principles that you are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> going by in your recommendations or are they just based on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> your sense of things based on your experience? Hope that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't sound rude; I just want to know, because then I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> could reference that for guidance later.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 8:37 AM, Robert Fentress
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just noticed the background of the wireframe I attached
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> transparent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here is one where I've filled that in. Sorry.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My take on this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - If adding an item, move focus to the recently added
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> item once
>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - If deleting one of multiple items, user should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notified to this, ideally by an accessible modal alert
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog, or at least using a live region with role="alert"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would suggest keeping focus on the delete button.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - If deleting the only item on the page, alert user in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same way but put the user focus at the top of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> page.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If possible, keep items in a list markup so that users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can quickly find out how many items are on the page
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (screen readers will notify user of the number of items
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in an ol or ul list).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/15, Robert Fentress < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Following up on my previous email regarding focus in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rich internet applications, I thought I'd provide an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explicit example. I'm attaching
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wireframe image to help make things clearer to the sighted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> following:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - A "Skip to content" link with id="skip" at the top of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the page
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - A large rectangle with id="items", which encompasses
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> items:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Two rectangles, one following the other vertically,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> class="item", one with id="item 1" and the other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> id="item2".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inside
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each element with class="item" are the following:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - A link with class="itemlink"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - An icon button with class="delete"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - The last thing in the "items" element is a button,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whose value
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Add Item" with id="add"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The delete button causes an item to be removed from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list of items,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "Add Item" button causes an item to be added to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bottom of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of items.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here are my questions, using jQuery selectors to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indicate element
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> referenced:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deleting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. With focus on $("#item1 .delete"), a click event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> causes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $("#item1")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be removed from the page dynamically. Where should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> focus be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> placed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Options:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Perform no explicit focus-setting action and allow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> browser to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> focus or not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. $("#items")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. $("#item2")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. $("#item2 .itemlink")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5. $("#skip")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. With only $("#item2") remaining and focus on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $("#item2 .delete"),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> click event causes $("#item1") to be removed from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> page
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dynamically.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where should focus be placed? Options:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Perform no explicit focus-setting action and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allow browser to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> focus or not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. $("#items")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. $("#add")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. $("#skip")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Reset scenario, so that $("#item1") and $("#item2")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With focus on $("#item2 .delete"), a click event causes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $("#item1")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> removed from the page dynamically. Where should focus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> placed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Options:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Perform no explicit focus-setting action and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allow browser to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> focus or not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. $("#items")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. $("#item1")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. $("#item1 .itemlink")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5. $("#add")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6. $("#skip")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Reset scenario, so that only $("#item1") and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $("#item2") are in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list. With focus on $("#add"), a click event causes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>>>> item,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $("#item3") to be added to the end of the list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dynamically.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scenario, we are assuming there are no intermediary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialogs or pages. Where should focus be placed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Options:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Perform no explicit focus-setting action and allow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> browser to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> focus or not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. $("#items")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. $("#item3")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. $("#item3 .itemlink")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5. $("#add")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6. $("#skip")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should $("#items") be a live region? If so, to what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parameters
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be set? If one felt live regions was appropriate here,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd guess the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> following:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - aria-live="polite"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - aria-atomic="false" (implied)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does that seem reasonable?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are there other attributes or techniques that would seem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly relevant to these use cases that should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> considered?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, in advance, for your assistance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert Fentress
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior Accessibility Solutions Designer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 540.231.1255
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Technology-enhanced Learning & Online Strategies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assistive Technologies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1180 Torgersen Hall
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 620 Drillfield Drive (0434) Blacksburg, Virginia 24061
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Address
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert Fentress
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior Accessibility Solutions Designer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 540.231.1255
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Technology-enhanced Learning & Online Strategies Assistive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Technologies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1180 Torgersen Hall
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 620 Drillfield Drive (0434)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blacksburg, Virginia 24061
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert Fentress
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior Accessibility Solutions Designer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 540.231.1255
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Technology-enhanced Learning & Online Strategies Assistive
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Technologies
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1180 Torgersen Hall
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 620 Drillfield Drive (0434)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blacksburg, Virginia 24061
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Address
>>>>>>>>>>>>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Address
>>>>>>>>>>>>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert Fentress
>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior Accessibility Solutions Designer
>>>>>>>>>>>> 540.231.1255
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Technology-enhanced Learning & Online Strategies Assistive
>>>>>>>>>>>> Technologies
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1180 Torgersen Hall
>>>>>>>>>>>> 620 Drillfield Drive (0434)
>>>>>>>>>>>> Blacksburg, Virginia 24061
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Robert Fentress
>>>>>>>>>>> Senior Accessibility Solutions Designer
>>>>>>>>>>> 540.231.1255
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Technology-enhanced Learning & Online Strategies Assistive
>>>>>>>>>>> Technologies
>>>>>>>>>>> 1180 Torgersen Hall
>>>>>>>>>>> 620 Drillfield Drive (0434)
>>>>>>>>>>> Blacksburg, Virginia 24061
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Address
>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>> messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Robert Fentress
>>>>>>>>>> Senior Accessibility Solutions Designer
>>>>>>>>>> 540.231.1255
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Technology-enhanced Learning & Online Strategies
>>>>>>>>>> Assistive Technologies
>>>>>>>>>> 1180 Torgersen Hall
>>>>>>>>>> 620 Drillfield Drive (0434)
>>>>>>>>>> Blacksburg, Virginia 24061
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Robert Fentress
>>>>>> Senior Accessibility Solutions Designer
>>>>>> 540.231.1255
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Technology-enhanced Learning & Online Strategies
>>>>>> Assistive Technologies
>>>>>> 1180 Torgersen Hall
>>>>>> 620 Drillfield Drive (0434)
>>>>>> Blacksburg, Virginia 24061
>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Robert Fentress
>>>> Senior Accessibility Solutions Designer
>>>> 540.231.1255
>>>>
>>>> Technology-enhanced Learning & Online Strategies
>>>> Assistive Technologies
>>>> 1180 Torgersen Hall
>>>> 620 Drillfield Drive (0434)
>>>> Blacksburg, Virginia 24061
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Robert Fentress
>> Senior Accessibility Solutions Designer
>> 540.231.1255
>>
>> Technology-enhanced Learning & Online Strategies
>> Assistive Technologies
>> 1180 Torgersen Hall
>> 620 Drillfield Drive (0434)
>> Blacksburg, Virginia 24061
>> >> >> >>
> > > > > > >