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Re: Flexbox layout ordering and tabbing order

for

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Oct 13, 2015 12:58PM

> I'm not sure that you would use Flexbox or grids within a data table?
(Although I'm not sure why you would use a form in a data table either!) I don't mean to dismiss the scenario though, is there a public facing example you could share, just to get an idea of why people would do that?

One example of form in a table is seen in tax forms where there is data in most of the cells but you need to fill in some fields in the table. I imagine one day people might use CSS only tables and then this might be relevant. Another case is where people use table structure but perhaps use CSS to change the way the traditional table looks to make it appear in some other representation like an infographic. No public links -- just trying to consider what scenarios are out there.

Jonathan

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Jonathan Avila
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SSB BART Group
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-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Alastair Campbell
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:07 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Flexbox layout ordering and tabbing order

Jonathan Avila wrote:

> we need to uncover if there are reasonable cases where the visual
> order and reading order could differ.


Definitely, I'm hoping people can provide examples where that might be the case, even if I argue against them ;-)


1. When a data table also contains form fields. In some cases with a grid
> the reading order could be down each column but the user may actually
> want to read across.
>

I'm not sure that you would use Flexbox or grids within a data table?
(Although I'm not sure why you would use a form in a data table either!) I don't mean to dismiss the scenario though, is there a public facing example you could share, just to get an idea of why people would do that?



> 2. When a site contains repeated information such as social media
> tools, navigation, etc. above an article or page. While skip
> navigation techniques could be used they may not always be available to all users.
> Getting past these areas to find the start of real content can be
> frustrating and time consuming.
>

As Patrick said, a keyboard user may want to get to them, and may expect to go through them anyway so could tab too fast or miss links at the top.

Screen reader users have more controls to make use of and should be able to get to the main heading or 'main'.

You might pick-up that I'm biasing towards visual-keyboard users. It isn't a prioritisation of audience, it is simply that (from watching) the effects are greater for that audience. When you are looking at the screen and the visible focus wonders around like a drunken post-modern dancer, it is really hard to hit the right link. Screen reader users have more controls, and more ability to understand the structure (when present). So long as the site is consistent and has landmarks/skip links, the order doesn't seem to matter as much.


What we really need is the flexibility to have user agents collapse or
> re-order tangential content like this to meet the user's needs.
>

Ok, but that is something a user-agent would have to do, it would be hideously complex to describe to authors what the difference orders might be.

For the purpose of what to do with CSS layouts, would you want there to be different orders?

Thanks,

-Alastair