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Re: Proper Markup on Web Pages

for

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: May 13, 2016 11:47AM

Hello,
There should not be any regulation put on opensource frameworks, there
should be a group of people who add accessibility to the open source
frameworks.
Thanks,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 9:44 AM, Aaron Cannon <
<EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> I suspect that any attempt to regulate open source projects will not
> end well for anyone, not to mention being legally very difficult.
>
> In general, open source frameworks offer what the users demand. As
> more businesses are forced or enticed to make their sites accessible,
> the more their developers will start expecting that their frameworks
> ease the burden of doing so.
>
> Speaking as a developer, I hate to see any regulation imposed upon the
> internet, software development, and similar things. I believe that
> the reason we have seen so much innovation is at least in part because
> most activities have gone unregulated, and the areas that have been,
> such as copyright, have been very cleverly worked around via the
> various open source and creative commons licenses. But, on the other
> hand, speaking as a blind person, I really hate it when I can't use
> the sites I want to. So, I'm a bit conflicted. :)
>
> Aaron
>
> On 5/12/16, Brandon Keith Biggs < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > Hello Brooks,
> > As we have been saying, the problem is not websites and apps, but the
> > underlying frameworks that they use. For example, anything using open GL
> is
> > not accessible to blind users unless a whole accessibility framework is
> > created.
> > So any ADA amendments should target frameworks primarily.
> >
> > Also, what percentages of the frameworks are open source? It may be
> > beneficial for a non profit or something to be created that just goes
> > around and adds markup to frameworks...
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> >
> > On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Brooks Newton < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hey Brandon,
> >>
> >> Very good point!
> >>
> >> In terms of "going after" a software manufacturer, be it an open source
> or
> >> private entity, I wouldn't count on any effective remedy under U.S. law
> >> to
> >> right this wrong at the present. Software manufacturers have largely
> been
> >> given a "pass" on Web accessibility regulation by the powers that be.
> I'm
> >> planning on making a post to this discussion list in the coming days
> that
> >> underscores the need to make software manufacturers accountable as part
> of
> >> the recently announced Americans with Disability Act (ADA) Title II
> >> Supplemental Advanced Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (SANPRM), which
> >> proposes to regulate the accessibility of Web sites, and possibly Web
> >> apps,
> >> for U.S. state and local governments. We need to rally support for this
> >> issue and make our expert opinions clear to the U.S. Department of
> >> Justice
> >> as they seek input on how to regulate Web accessibility in this country.
> >>
> >> In terms of voluntary support for making development frameworks
> >> accessible, there have been a number of efforts. I'll defer to others
> on
> >> this list to speak to those efforts.
> >>
> >> More to come later on the recent ADA Title II SANPRM...
> >>
> >> Brooks Newton
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Brandon Keith Biggs [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 2:21 PM
> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Proper Markup on Web Pages
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >> Is there any kind of org that goes after larger providers such as
> angular,
> >> .net or whatnot to make sure all their wigits are accessible? That would
> >> go
> >> miles in helping stuff be accessible.
> >>
> >>
> >> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> >>
> >> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Mike Barlow < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I agree 100% Teresa. I've seen the same thing and have had similar
> >> > discussions in several of the local user groups I attend. Too many
> >> > developers only know how to "code" using some of the new tools and
> >> > IDE's out there that don't have accessibility in mind. And as far as
> >> > Wordpress goes there are a number of Accessible templates out there
> that
> >> can be used.
> >> > I believe even the base Wordpress template direct from Wordpress is
> >> > flagged as an Accessible template, though since I don't use Wordpress
> >> > I haven't checked into that personally.
> >> >
> >> > But in most cases the edict needs to come down from "on high" to
> >> > inform developers they need to develop accessible sites/applications.
> >> > Unless a company requires that from developers most (especially the
> >> > ones who aren't familiar with developing accessible sites) won't take
> >> > that into consideration. They also need to ensure that the apps get
> >> > properly tested for accessibility. Too often I've heard people say,
> >> > well isn't it only that we have to have the "alt" attribute on images?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > *Mike Barlow*
> >> > Web Application Developer
> >> > Web Accessibility/Section 508 SME
> >> >
> >> > Lancaster, Pa 17601
> >> > Office: 732.835-7557
> >> > Cell: 732.682.8226
> >> > e-mail: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 1:38 PM, Teresa Haven < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hi, Brandon. From my observations, a lot of developers don't
> >> > > actually write code any more -- or at least, they don't write HTML.
> >> > > They use something like .NET, or a toolkit like Bootstrap or Angular
> >> > > or any of a hundred others that generate the code for them, and they
> >> > > don't know what
> >> > is
> >> > > getting generated, but they do it because they think they are saving
> >> > > time and/or that "accessibility is hard". I've done extensive work
> >> > > with our in-house developers over the past year+ to get them to
> >> > > think hard about (and actually observe) how much time they are
> >> > > "saving", and many of them are now modifying their practices, but it
> >> > > has required a lot of personal relationship-building plus having an
> >> > > in-house edict that says they have
> >> > to
> >> > > improve the accessibility of what they are building. I believe many
> >> > > developers a) don't have the knowledge that they are doing anything
> >> > wrong,
> >> > > and b) don't have the direct support to show them why learning to do
> >> > things
> >> > > differently would be an advantage to them. I think one of the big
> >> > questions
> >> > > for groups like us is, "How can we get people to understand both why
> >> > > this is important, and how they can do it without them thinking it
> >> > > is overwhelmingly difficult?"
> >> > >
> >> > > Teresa
> >> > >
> >> > > Teresa Haven, Ph.D.
> >> > > Accessibility Analyst, Northern Arizona University
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
> >> > > Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
> >> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 9:46 AM
> >> > > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> > > Subject: [WebAIM] Proper Markup on Web Pages
> >> > >
> >> > > Hello,
> >> > > Over the last 2 years I have seen an increasing tendency for
> >> > > websites to just not use HTML in their websites.
> >> > > For example, sites such as:
> >> > > http://www.roommates.com/
> >> > > and
> >> > > https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/hhh
> >> > >
> >> > > have headings on their homepages, but no headings anywhere else.
> >> > > Also, most websites have blank sharing buttons:
> >> > > https://www.indiegogo.com/#/picks_for_you
> >> > > or for their follow buttons, they just say "indigogo".
> >> > >
> >> > > This tendency is being exacerbated by CMSes such as WordPress which
> >> > > have plugins that people use without understanding that they are not
> >> > accessible.
> >> > > This should be a better thing, but when those plugin developers have
> >> > > no interest in making their plugin accessible, everyone is out of
> >> > > luck.
> >> > >
> >> > > Have other people noticed this tendency to not put headings, not
> >> > > label links and put extensive non labled clickable elements on their
> >> pages?
> >> > >
> >> > > What can be done to move more people to these standards?
> >> > >
> >> > > My first thought is to require at least one heading on an html page
> >> > unless
> >> > > an explicit tag is given.
> >> > > Another thing is to not show links that do not have text inside
> >> > > like: <a href="http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/" id="l1"> </a>
> >> > >
> >> > > Something I hear quite often from web developers is that native
> >> > > wigits
> >> > are
> >> > > too difficult to customize, so it is just easier to make their own.
> >> > > I
> >> > don't
> >> > > understand this, but this opinion is very detrimental to
> >> > > accessibility.
> >> > > Thank you,
> >> > >
> >> > > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> >> > > > >> > > > >> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > > > >> > >
> >> > > >> > > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > > >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >