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Re: Lists without bullet or number characters

for

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Aug 21, 2016 7:54PM

For HTML I would at least make a best practice issue under 1.3.1 when
the numbers are removed from the <ol> tag with list styling,
especially when an ordered list is the semantically appropriate
element for the information (e.g. top 5, or a list of steps in a
process).
If the list bullet is set to an image that communicates information,
and that image is presented as a CSS background image or does not have
alt text, then I would call an issue under 1.1.1.

For unordered lists I don't really see a problem with custom bullets
(or even removing the bullets) unless the bullets communicate some
type of meaning that the list semantics alone do not.




On 8/19/16, Duff Johnson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Hi Bevi,
>
> Certainly, PDF/UA does not require that list items have labels. That would
> be a content requirement rather than a structural / syntactical requirement,
> and PDF/UA focusses on "getting the PDF aspect of things right". It's not a
> best-practice guide for authoring, merely a bunch of rules for software
> developers.
>
> The short version: PDF 1.7 and PDF/UA-1 do not explicitly prohibit content
> as a direct child of <LI> structure elements.
>
> In practice, AT (that I'm aware of) that uses tagged PDF "understands" this
> situation by simply reading the label (if any) and body together (which is
> far from ideal, see below).
>
> FWIW, the current draft of the PDF Association's Tagged PDF Best Practice
> Guide prohibits this practice.
>
> In general, PDF/UA always requires the most semantically appropriate tag.
> For list items, there's always a "body" and usually, there's label content
> too. Since PDF/UA requires "semantically appropriate" structure elements, a
> strict reading implies that the content of a list item must *always* include
> structure elements necessary to disambiguating labels from list-bodies in
> all cases.
>
> Imagine this case:
>
> <P>
> My list of things to buy.
> <LI>
> 4 wheels.
>
> Who knows if this means item # 4 or "4 wheels"? But...
>
> <P>
> My list of things to buy.
> <LI>
> <Lbl>
> 4
> <LBody>
> wheels.
>
> and
>
> <P>
> My list of things to buy.
> <LI>
> <LBody>
> 4 wheels.
>
> are completely clear.
>
> In reviewing the current drafts of PDF 2.0 and PDF/UA-2, I agree with the
> current draft of the Best Practice Guide, and think the screws need to be
> tightened on this one. IE, that LBody would be mandated (and Lbl remain
> optional) for list item content.
>
> HTH!
>
> Duff.
>
>
>
>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 18:46, Chagnon | PubCom < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>
>> Patrick L wrote: < Why wouldn't it? What SC do you think this would
>> violate? >
>>
>> Neither WCAG or PDF/UA mention this situation one way or the other. They
>> reference only normal bulleted and numbered lists.
>>
>> Since HTML coding doesn't specifically tag the actual bullet or number
>> character, it's probably OK to not have a bullet or number character
>> itself. The content will be understandable without them. Example:
>>
>> In HTML
>> <UL>
>> <LI>
>> <LI>
>> </UL>
>>
>> But with PDFs, there's only one <L> tag to apply to both ordered
>> (numbered) or unordered (bulleted) lists. And PDF/UA standards (7.6)
>> suggest subtags on the individual <LI> list items. Example:
>>
>> <L>
>> <LI>
>> <Lbl> bullet or number character
>> <Lbody> item text
>> <LI> etc.
>>
>> The <Lbl> tag surrounds the bullet or number character and annouces to the
>> user the actual bullet or number.
>>
>> So my original question, revised for clarify, is:
>> Is it compliant with WCAG and PDF/UA to not have visual (or announced)
>> bullet or number characters in a list?
>>
>> --Bevi Chagnon
>>
>> — — —
>> Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
>> Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
>> for publishing & communication
>> | Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
>> — — —
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf
>> Of Patrick H. Lauke
>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 6:23 PM
>> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Lists without bullet or number characters
>>
>> On 19/08/2016 22:53, Chagnon | PubCom wrote:
>>> Is it compliant with WCAG and/or PDF/UA to have lists without bullet
>>> characters or numbers?
>>
>> Why wouldn't it? What SC do you think this would violate?
>>
>> P
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And if so, would they be tagged as:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For WCAG,
>>>
>>> <ul>
>>>
>>> <li>
>>>
>>> <li>
>>>
>>> </ul>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And for PDF/UA
>>>
>>> <L>
>>>
>>> <li>
>>>
>>> <li>
>>>
>>> (and without the <LBL> and <LBody> sub-tags?)
>>> --Bevi Chagnon
>>
>>> - - -
>>>
>>> Bevi Chagnon | <http://www.pubcom.com/>; www.PubCom.com
>>>
>>> Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
>>>
>>> for publishing & communication
>>>
>>> | Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
>>>
>>> - - -
>>
>> >> >> >> >
> > > > >


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