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Re: Accessibility of responsive, repositioned sidebars?

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From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Nov 1, 2016 8:43PM

> Looks like the consensus was that flexbox order should be purely visual and should not affect the logical order for the purposes of tab or virtual cursor navigation.

That was in 2014. I think there is some new discussion around the topic that may change the original thinking. But as you imagine it's not something that will immediately make it into browsers as there is some complexity to the subject. There is disagreement as to whether the Firefox behavior is a bug or works as designed.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Robert Fentress
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2016 8:54 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility of responsive, repositioned sidebars?

Here is some further info from discussions at the W3C:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0345.html

Looks like the consensus was that flexbox order should be purely visual and should not affect the logical order for the purposes of tab or virtual cursor navigation.

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Robert Fentress < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Thanks for following up, Jonathan.
>
> I hadn't thought to check with Firefox. I just did and see, that it
> does, indeed, work as you describe there. I had only checked with
> Chrome, where, unfortunately, flexbox-assigned order doesn't appear to
> have any effect on tab order. So, it looks like that still won't
> solve the problem (?), unless I am overlooking something. How depressing!
>
> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 1:34 PM, Jonathan Avila <
> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
>> > If I tab past the last menu item in the main horizontal navigation
>> > at
>> the top of the page, I, personally, would expect the next tab stop to
>> be the first link in the main content area (left column), not the
>> first link in the secondary navigation menu (right column). This
>> would be the case whether that secondary navigation was made to
>> appear there using float:right with CSS or by using the order property in the flexbox model.
>>
>> From what I understand if the order property is used in Firefox the
>> tab order will actually change to match the visual order and not the
>> source order.
>>
>> > Jonathan, I'm interpreting what you've said as falling on the "It's
>> probably not that big a deal either way" side of things in the
>> scenario described above. That sound right?
>>
>> Right, as long as the sequence is still meaningful there would appear
>> to be allowances for some deviation from the visual order.
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>> Jonathan Avila
>> Chief Accessibility Officer
>> SSB BART Group
>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> 703.637.8957 (Office)
>> Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | Linkedin | Blog Check
>> out our Digital Accessibility Webinars!
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
>> Behalf Of Robert Fentress
>> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2016 1:27 PM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility of responsive, repositioned sidebars?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> I certainly *can* change the visual order using flexbox or CSS, but
>> my question is if I *should*, when that means the tab order no longer
>> matches the visual order.
>>
>> For instance, assume the following for a desktop view: There is a row
>> containing a full-width banner at the top of the page followed by a
>> row containing a horizontal main navigation bar that stretches across
>> the full width of the page, followed by a row with two columns, where
>> the left column is the main page content, including some links
>> embedded in a paragraph, and the right column is a vertical secondary nav.
>>
>> If I tab past the last menu item in the main horizontal navigation at
>> the top of the page, I, personally, would expect the next tab stop to
>> be the first link in the main content area (left column), not the
>> first link in the secondary navigation menu (right column). This
>> would be the case whether that secondary navigation was made to
>> appear there using float:right with CSS or by using the order property in the flexbox model.
>> If this is, indeed, problematic, is it better, then, to use
>> Javascript to rearrange the DOM, so that the tab order always matches the visible order?
>> Though this seems less elegant, if one used matchMedia, it would be
>> less so.
>>
>> Jonathan, I'm interpreting what you've said as falling on the "It's
>> probably not that big a deal either way" side of things in the
>> scenario described above. That sound right?
>>
>> Adding a further wrinkle, sometimes there are layouts where a
>> secondary navigation menu and other supplementary content both appear
>> together in a right-side column on large viewports, but, on small
>> viewports, the secondary menu breaks above the main content, while
>> the other supplementary content breaks below. Ugh!
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Asa Baylus < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Robert,
>> >
>> > I just went through this same issue. It's trivial to solve if
>> > you're using flexbox. With flexbox you can change the order without
>> > JS
>> >
>> > Browser support is pretty decent these days
>> >
>> > Just a thought and your browser support matrix may not allow for it
>> >
>> > Asa
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> > > On Oct 26, 2016, at 8:45 AM, Robert Fentress < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Bummer. Nobody has an opinion, or was I just not clear in my
>> > > explanation of the issue?
>> > >
>> > >> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Robert Fentress < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Hello, all.
>> > >>
>> > >> Anybody got opinions on the accessibility of responsive designs
>> > >> where a secondary menu appears as a column to the right of the
>> > >> main content on desktop breakpoints, but, on mobile, the menu
>> > >> appears above the main content, perhaps in a disclosure widget
>> > >> of some sort? In both cases,
>> > the
>> > >> DOM order has the menu before the main content, with the visual
>> > >> changes being accomplished using CSS.
>> > >>
>> > >> From a design perspective, the fact that the main content
>> > >> dominates visually on desktop is probably good and making the
>> > >> menu easier to get
>> > to
>> > >> by preceding the content on mobile makes sense (though it gets
>> > complicated
>> > >> when you consider ease of access and hand position). My
>> > >> question,
>> > though
>> > >> is how bad it is that the DOM order now does not match the tab
>> > >> order for keyboarders? Certainly, this is not an uncommon
>> > >> pattern on the web
>> > these
>> > >> days. Perhaps, it would not terribly violate user expectations.
>> > >>
>> > >> Beyond the tab order, simply having the visual order not match
>> > >> the DOM order appears to be a no-no for various reasons, based on "C27:
>> > >> Making the DOM order match the visual order"
>> > >> <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/C27.html>. However, this is
>> > >> but
>> > one
>> > >> sufficient condition for meeting the related success criterion,
>> > >> 1.3.2 Meaningful Sequence
>> > >> <https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/#qr-content-
>> > structure-separation-sequence>.
>> > >> C27 says:
>> > >>
>> > >> "If this is a sufficient technique for a success criterion,
>> > >> failing this test procedure does not necessarily mean that the
>> > >> success criterion has
>> > not
>> > >> been satisfied in some other way, only that this technique has
>> > >> not been successfully implemented and can not be used to claim
>> conformance."
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> So, it seems ambiguous to me.
>> > >>
>> > >> Would it be better to actually move the content with JavaScript
>> > >> at
>> > smaller
>> > >> breakpoints so the DOM order matches the visual order? That
>> > >> strikes me
>> > as
>> > >> inelegant (though less so as matchMedia
>> > >> <http://caniuse.com/#feat=matchmedia>; gains ground) and more
>> > >> likely to break. It may also confuse users who move between devices.
>> > >>
>> > >> What do you folks think about the relative advantages and
>> > >> disadvantages
>> > of
>> > >> various approaches?
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks.
>> > >>
>> > >> Best,
>> > >> Rob
>> > >>
>> > > >> > > >> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > > >> >
>> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> >
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>
>
>
> --
> Robert Fentress
> Senior Accessibility Solutions Designer
> 540.231.1255
>
> Technology-enhanced Learning & Online Strategies Assistive
> Technologies
> 1180 Torgersen Hall
> 620 Drillfield Drive (0434)
> Blacksburg, Virginia 24061
>



--
Robert Fentress
Senior Accessibility Solutions Designer
540.231.1255

Technology-enhanced Learning & Online Strategies Assistive Technologies
1180 Torgersen Hall
620 Drillfield Drive (0434)
Blacksburg, Virginia 24061