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Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

for

From: Steve Green
Date: Jul 23, 2018 1:20PM

I don't have any insight into that - there are a few companies like Paciello who have people in both countries, and they may have a view on this.

In the UK the government funds an Access To Work programme that pays for equipment, software and training to help people with disabilities get into work. They typically pay for market-leading products like JAWS, ZoomText and Kurzweil, but training is often limited to a day or less in my experience. I don't know if that is the norm in the UK or how it compares with the US.

We have a huge number of disability support groups in the UK, some local and some national. However, I don't know how much training they provide. I am consistently shocked that even the most proficient participants we work with don't know how to use their assistive technologies effectively.

For instance, not one screen reader user has used JAWS' table navigation commands in 14 years of testing. Just last week one said "I wish there was a way to navigate up and down these columns", and that's not the first time. It's the same with ZoomText and Dragon users. Where we can, we recommend our clients implement accommodations to assist people like this, but sometimes there's nothing you can do.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Robert Fentress
Sent: 23 July 2018 20:06
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

Steve, I see you're from the UK. Do think there might be any difference in usage patterns in the states? For instance, what kind of government assistance is provided there to train people how to use assistive technologies and pay for them? Any other demographic issues that would be relevant?

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 3:01 PM Robert Fentress < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Thanks, Steve. That's some very useful info.
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 1:40 PM Steve Green <
> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
>> Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them
>> expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really
>> don't care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I
>> have observed over 14 years of user testing include:
>>
>> 1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are
>> provided and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because
>> the screen reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they
>> just stop it and start navigating from wherever it stopped.
>>
>> 2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly
>> to an <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the <h1>.
>> This is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier to find
>> the H key than the 1 key.
>>
>> 3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far
>> more important than perfect nesting of headings.
>>
>> 4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception
>> of "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't
>> know what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise.
>> That's not to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are
>> not understood well enough to be useful.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf
>> Of Robert Fentress
>> Sent: 23 July 2018 18:23
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>
>> Also, assuming the `<nav>`s and search regions are before the
>> `<main>`, do you usually use `<h2>` for those? I think the `<h1>`
>> should be reserved for the first thing in `<main>`, so screen reader
>> users can use key commands to skip to the main content. It seems bad
>> to me to have the document outline set up like that, but I guess
>> certain page layouts necessitate it if you are using aria-labelledby
>> (another reason for aria-label).
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 AM Steve Green <
>> <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes
>> > people use as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't
>> > recall any participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously
>> > some people do, but I have yet to encounter one.
>> >
>> > Steve Green
>> > Managing Director
>> > Test Partners Ltd
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf
>> > Of Jonathan Avila
>> > Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>> >
>> > > . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose
>> > > of
>> > being the label for the landmark.
>> >
>> > I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by
>> > heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to
>> > benefit people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on
>> > whether this
>> is good or bad
>> > -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is that
>> > many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at
>> > the WebAIM screen reader user survey.
>> >
>> > Jonathan
>> >
>> > Jonathan Avila
>> > Chief Accessibility Officer
>> > Level Access
>> > <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> > 703.637.8957 office
>> >
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>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
>> > Behalf Of glen walker
>> > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>> >
>> > Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is
>> > bad on farmers.gov?
>> >
>> > I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They
>> > have a <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't
>> > recommended but is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They
>> > also use the word "navigation" in their labels for their <nav>
>> > elements so you'll hear the word "navigation" twice, once for the
>> > label and once because it's the type of landmark.
>> >
>> > I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a
>> > problem with using a label on a <nav>.
>> >
>> > Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before
>> > and used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only
>> > because it was natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark.
>> > I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
>> > being the label for the landmark. I don't see the purpose of that.
>> > Just use an aria-label instead. If the heading isn't really the
>> > label for a section (and I use the word "section" generically, not
>> > as a landmark element), then you shouldn't have a heading. It
>> > would add confusion to
>> the page outline.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City,
>> > MO < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
>> > > problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Rob Fentress*
>> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
>> Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
>> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
>> LinkedIn Profile
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
>> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>
>
> --
> *Rob Fentress*
> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
> Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> LinkedIn Profile
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing
> <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>


--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard) <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>