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Thread: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

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Number of posts in this thread: 24 (In chronological order)

From: Robert Fentress
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 7:58AM
Subject: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
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What are folks thoughts on using headings with landmark regions? For
instance, I've seen people place a heading in a `<nav>` region and then use
it as the label with `aria-labelledby` pointing to the IDREF of the
heading. I used to do this, but the more I think about it, the less I like
it. It seems better to me, somehow to reserve headings for content (like
in `<main>` and possibly `<aside>`), and instead to just use `aria-label`
for things that are more interface-related, like regions with the
`navigation`, `search`, and `banner` roles.

A good rule of thumb might be, that if there is a visible heading, use that
to label the region with `aria-labelledby`. If not, that is probably a
good sign that `aria-label` is more appropriate.

One of the reasons why using hidden headings seems wrong is that it makes
things more noisy. Screen readers will voice both the region label when
the user enters the region, and the heading itself when they get to that.

Then, there is the related issue of whether the headings should just be
visually hidden or removed using `display:none`. Only hiding them visibly
means screen reader users can still use the heading navigation affordances,
at the cost of that duplicative voicing. Hiding them from everyone with
`display:none` gets around that, but then the only thing this buys you is
the ability to navigate by heading should CSS be turned off altogether. Of
course, these days, turning off CSS altogether will likely make your site
go all fubar anyway.

Thoughts?

Best,
Rob

--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech
Electronic Business Card (vCard)
<http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>

From: Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City, MO
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 8:08AM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Robert Fentress
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 8:59 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

What are folks thoughts on using headings with landmark regions? For instance, I've seen people place a heading in a `<nav>` region and then use it as the label with `aria-labelledby` pointing to the IDREF of the heading. I used to do this, but the more I think about it, the less I like it. It seems better to me, somehow to reserve headings for content (like in `<main>` and possibly `<aside>`), and instead to just use `aria-label` for things that are more interface-related, like regions with the `navigation`, `search`, and `banner` roles.

A good rule of thumb might be, that if there is a visible heading, use that to label the region with `aria-labelledby`. If not, that is probably a good sign that `aria-label` is more appropriate.

One of the reasons why using hidden headings seems wrong is that it makes things more noisy. Screen readers will voice both the region label when the user enters the region, and the heading itself when they get to that.

Then, there is the related issue of whether the headings should just be visually hidden or removed using `display:none`. Only hiding them visibly means screen reader users can still use the heading navigation affordances, at the cost of that duplicative voicing. Hiding them from everyone with `display:none` gets around that, but then the only thing this buys you is the ability to navigate by heading should CSS be turned off altogether. Of course, these days, turning off CSS altogether will likely make your site go all fubar anyway.

Thoughts?

Best,
Rob

--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard) <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA solely for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of this message or the use or disclosure of the information it contains may violate the law and subject the violator to civil or criminal penalties. If you believe you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete the email immediately.

From: Robert Fentress
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 8:51AM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

So is the issue with the Farmers <http://farmers.gov>; page the repetitive
use of the phrase "navigation," especially as things are surfaced in NVDA?

That raises another issue in my mind, which is whether to use the phrase
"navigation" in labels for `<nav>` regions. To me, this seems duplicative
as well. If you are using a navigation region, then screen readers will
surface something like the phrase "navigation" anyway, so it seems kinda
pointless. It sort of like providing alt text for an image that says
"Image of a person on a bicycle," rather than, "Person on a bicycle." That
is why, rather than label my site navigation "Site Navigation", I'm
labelling it "Site". But, then, I'm using aria-label, which is one of the
arguments for using it. If you used aria-labelledby, you'd have to do
something more involved to avoid that extra noise, like this: `<h2><span
id="label">Site</span> Navigation</h2>`. I mean, I guess that's not a big
deal, but it seems less than ideal somehow.

On a separate note, I see the Farmers page has nested `<nav>` regions.
Functional
Accessibility Evaluator <https://fae.disability.illinois.edu/> flags things
like this as errors
<https://fae.disability.illinois.edu/pages/164c7921ad31c31b/rc/landmarks/page/1/landmark10/>,
though I haven't been able to find anything in any specs that supports
this. Other checkers don't seem to flag it either. Is this an error, a
best practice violation, or neither? Opinions? Why is this problematic,
aside from the best practice of not having too many navigation regions in
general?

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 10:09 AM Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City, MO <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
> problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Robert Fentress
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 8:59 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label
> best for for labelling landmark regions?
>
> What are folks thoughts on using headings with landmark regions? For
> instance, I've seen people place a heading in a `<nav>` region and then use
> it as the label with `aria-labelledby` pointing to the IDREF of the
> heading. I used to do this, but the more I think about it, the less I like
> it. It seems better to me, somehow to reserve headings for content (like
> in `<main>` and possibly `<aside>`), and instead to just use `aria-label`
> for things that are more interface-related, like regions with the
> `navigation`, `search`, and `banner` roles.
>
> A good rule of thumb might be, that if there is a visible heading, use
> that to label the region with `aria-labelledby`. If not, that is probably
> a good sign that `aria-label` is more appropriate.
>
> One of the reasons why using hidden headings seems wrong is that it makes
> things more noisy. Screen readers will voice both the region label when
> the user enters the region, and the heading itself when they get to that.
>
> Then, there is the related issue of whether the headings should just be
> visually hidden or removed using `display:none`. Only hiding them visibly
> means screen reader users can still use the heading navigation affordances,
> at the cost of that duplicative voicing. Hiding them from everyone with
> `display:none` gets around that, but then the only thing this buys you is
> the ability to navigate by heading should CSS be turned off altogether. Of
> course, these days, turning off CSS altogether will likely make your site
> go all fubar anyway.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Best,
> Rob
>
> --
> *Rob Fentress*
> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
> Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard) <
> http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> LinkedIn Profile
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
>
>
>
> This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA solely
> for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of this message
> or the use or disclosure of the information it contains may violate the law
> and subject the violator to civil or criminal penalties. If you believe you
> have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete
> the email immediately.
> > > > >


--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech
Electronic Business Card (vCard)
<http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>

From: glen walker
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 8:59AM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is bad on
farmers.gov?

I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They have a
<nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't recommended but
is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They also use the word
"navigation" in their labels for their <nav> elements so you'll hear the
word "navigation" twice, once for the label and once because it's the type
of landmark.

I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a problem with
using a label on a <nav>.

Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before and
used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only because it was
natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark. I have not added
visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of being the label for the
landmark. I don't see the purpose of that. Just use an aria-label
instead. If the heading isn't really the label for a section (and I use
the word "section" generically, not as a landmark element), then you
shouldn't have a heading. It would add confusion to the page outline.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City, MO <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
> problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
>
>

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 9:20AM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

> . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of being the label for the landmark.

I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to benefit people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on whether this is good or bad -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is that many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at the WebAIM screen reader user survey.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office

Visit us online:
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The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of glen walker
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is bad on
farmers.gov?

I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They have a
<nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't recommended but
is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They also use the word
"navigation" in their labels for their <nav> elements so you'll hear the
word "navigation" twice, once for the label and once because it's the type
of landmark.

I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a problem with
using a label on a <nav>.

Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before and
used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only because it was
natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark. I have not added
visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of being the label for the
landmark. I don't see the purpose of that. Just use an aria-label
instead. If the heading isn't really the label for a section (and I use
the word "section" generically, not as a landmark element), then you
shouldn't have a heading. It would add confusion to the page outline.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City, MO <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
> problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
>
>

From: Robert Fentress
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 9:37AM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

Has anybody tested support for aria-label versus aria-labelledby for
landmark regions? That may also help in deciding between these two
approaches. I'd think both are pretty thoroughly supported by now, but, if
there was any difference, I'd imagine aria-labelledby might have less
support, since it is very slightly more complicated.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:20 AM Jonathan Avila < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> > . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
> being the label for the landmark.
>
> I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by heading
> and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to benefit people who
> navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on whether this is good or bad
> -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is that
> many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at the
> WebAIM screen reader user survey.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> Level Access
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 703.637.8957 office
>
> Visit us online:
> Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
>
> Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!
>
> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged
> and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or
> entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of glen walker
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>
> Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is bad on
> farmers.gov?
>
> I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They have a
> <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't recommended but
> is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They also use the word
> "navigation" in their labels for their <nav> elements so you'll hear the
> word "navigation" twice, once for the label and once because it's the type
> of landmark.
>
> I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a problem with
> using a label on a <nav>.
>
> Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before and
> used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only because it was
> natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark. I have not added
> visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of being the label for the
> landmark. I don't see the purpose of that. Just use an aria-label
> instead. If the heading isn't really the label for a section (and I use
> the word "section" generically, not as a landmark element), then you
> shouldn't have a heading. It would add confusion to the page outline.
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City, MO <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
> > problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > >


--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech
Electronic Business Card (vCard)
<http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>

From: glen walker
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 9:38AM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes, that was my assumption too, adding a heading for the benefit of
navigating, but doing so could be confusing for the page outline since it
would be a contrived heading for the sole purpose of navigating.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 9:20 AM, Jonathan Avila < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> > . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
> being the label for the landmark.
>
> I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by heading
> and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to benefit people who
> navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on whether this is good or bad
> -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is that
> many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at the
> WebAIM screen reader user survey.
>
> Jonathan
>

From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 9:56AM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes people use as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't recall any participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously some people do, but I have yet to encounter one.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

> . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of being the label for the landmark.

I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to benefit people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on whether this is good or bad -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is that many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at the WebAIM screen reader user survey.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office

Visit us online:
Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog

Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of glen walker
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is bad on farmers.gov?

I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They have a <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't recommended but is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They also use the word "navigation" in their labels for their <nav> elements so you'll hear the word "navigation" twice, once for the label and once because it's the type of landmark.

I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a problem with using a label on a <nav>.

Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before and used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only because it was natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark. I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of being the label for the landmark. I don't see the purpose of that. Just use an aria-label instead. If the heading isn't really the label for a section (and I use the word "section" generically, not as a landmark element), then you shouldn't have a heading. It would add confusion to the page outline.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City, MO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
> problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
>
>

From: Robert Fentress
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 11:22AM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

Also, assuming the `<nav>`s and search regions are before the `<main>`, do
you usually use `<h2>` for those? I think the `<h1>` should be reserved
for the first thing in `<main>`, so screen reader users can use key
commands to skip to the main content. It seems bad to me to have the
document outline set up like that, but I guess certain page layouts
necessitate it if you are using aria-labelledby (another reason for
aria-label).

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 AM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes people use
> as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't recall any
> participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously some people do, but I
> have yet to encounter one.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Jonathan Avila
> Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>
> > . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
> being the label for the landmark.
>
> I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by heading
> and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to benefit people who
> navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on whether this is good or bad
> -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is that
> many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at the
> WebAIM screen reader user survey.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> Level Access
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 703.637.8957 office
>
> Visit us online:
> Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
>
> Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!
>
> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged
> and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or
> entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of glen walker
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>
> Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is bad on
> farmers.gov?
>
> I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They have a
> <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't recommended but
> is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They also use the word
> "navigation" in their labels for their <nav> elements so you'll hear the
> word "navigation" twice, once for the label and once because it's the type
> of landmark.
>
> I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a problem with
> using a label on a <nav>.
>
> Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before and
> used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only because it was
> natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark. I have not added
> visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of being the label for the
> landmark. I don't see the purpose of that. Just use an aria-label
> instead. If the heading isn't really the label for a section (and I use
> the word "section" generically, not as a landmark element), then you
> shouldn't have a heading. It would add confusion to the page outline.
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City, MO <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
> > problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
> >
> >
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >


--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech
Electronic Business Card (vCard)
<http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>

From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 11:40AM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really don't care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I have observed over 14 years of user testing include:

1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are provided and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because the screen reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they just stop it and start navigating from wherever it stopped.

2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly to an <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the <h1>. This is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier to find the H key than the 1 key.

3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far more important than perfect nesting of headings.

4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception of "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't know what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise. That's not to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are not understood well enough to be useful.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Robert Fentress
Sent: 23 July 2018 18:23
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

Also, assuming the `<nav>`s and search regions are before the `<main>`, do you usually use `<h2>` for those? I think the `<h1>` should be reserved for the first thing in `<main>`, so screen reader users can use key commands to skip to the main content. It seems bad to me to have the document outline set up like that, but I guess certain page layouts necessitate it if you are using aria-labelledby (another reason for aria-label).

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 AM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes people
> use as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't recall any
> participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously some people do,
> but I have yet to encounter one.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Jonathan Avila
> Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>
> > . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
> being the label for the landmark.
>
> I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by
> heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to benefit
> people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on whether this is good or bad
> -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is that
> many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at
> the WebAIM screen reader user survey.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> Level Access
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 703.637.8957 office
>
> Visit us online:
> Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
>
> Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!
>
> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
> privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the
> individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not
> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
> dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of glen walker
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>
> Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is bad
> on farmers.gov?
>
> I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They
> have a <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't
> recommended but is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They
> also use the word "navigation" in their labels for their <nav>
> elements so you'll hear the word "navigation" twice, once for the
> label and once because it's the type of landmark.
>
> I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a problem
> with using a label on a <nav>.
>
> Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before
> and used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only because
> it was natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark. I have
> not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of being the
> label for the landmark. I don't see the purpose of that. Just use an
> aria-label instead. If the heading isn't really the label for a
> section (and I use the word "section" generically, not as a landmark
> element), then you shouldn't have a heading. It would add confusion to the page outline.
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City, MO
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
> > problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
> >
> >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard) <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>

From: glen walker
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 12:39PM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

Good stuff, Steve, and thank you for caveating your results of landmarks
(#4) by saying that your results don't mean we shouldn't use them.

The same is true for skip links (#1), although your results were qualified
by screen reader users. As a keyboard user, I use skip links quite often.


On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:40 AM, Steve Green <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them
> expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really don't
> care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I have observed
> over 14 years of user testing include:
>
> 1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are provided
> and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because the screen
> reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they just stop it and
> start navigating from wherever it stopped.
>
> 2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly to an
> <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the <h1>. This
> is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier to find the H key
> than the 1 key.
>
> 3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far more
> important than perfect nesting of headings.
>
> 4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception of
> "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't know
> what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise. That's not
> to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are not understood
> well enough to be useful.
>
> Steve
>

From: Robert Fentress
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 1:01PM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks, Steve. That's some very useful info.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 1:40 PM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them
> expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really don't
> care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I have observed
> over 14 years of user testing include:
>
> 1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are provided
> and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because the screen
> reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they just stop it and
> start navigating from wherever it stopped.
>
> 2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly to an
> <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the <h1>. This
> is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier to find the H key
> than the 1 key.
>
> 3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far more
> important than perfect nesting of headings.
>
> 4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception of
> "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't know
> what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise. That's not
> to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are not understood
> well enough to be useful.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Robert Fentress
> Sent: 23 July 2018 18:23
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>
> Also, assuming the `<nav>`s and search regions are before the `<main>`, do
> you usually use `<h2>` for those? I think the `<h1>` should be reserved
> for the first thing in `<main>`, so screen reader users can use key
> commands to skip to the main content. It seems bad to me to have the
> document outline set up like that, but I guess certain page layouts
> necessitate it if you are using aria-labelledby (another reason for
> aria-label).
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 AM Steve Green <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes people
> > use as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't recall any
> > participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously some people do,
> > but I have yet to encounter one.
> >
> > Steve Green
> > Managing Director
> > Test Partners Ltd
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> > Jonathan Avila
> > Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
> >
> > > . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
> > being the label for the landmark.
> >
> > I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by
> > heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to benefit
> > people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on whether this is
> good or bad
> > -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is that
> > many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at
> > the WebAIM screen reader user survey.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > Jonathan Avila
> > Chief Accessibility Officer
> > Level Access
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > 703.637.8957 office
> >
> > Visit us online:
> > Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
> >
> > Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free
> webinars!
> >
> > The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
> > privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the
> > individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not
> > the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
> > dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly
> prohibited.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > Behalf Of glen walker
> > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
> >
> > Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is bad
> > on farmers.gov?
> >
> > I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They
> > have a <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't
> > recommended but is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They
> > also use the word "navigation" in their labels for their <nav>
> > elements so you'll hear the word "navigation" twice, once for the
> > label and once because it's the type of landmark.
> >
> > I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a problem
> > with using a label on a <nav>.
> >
> > Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before
> > and used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only because
> > it was natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark. I have
> > not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of being the
> > label for the landmark. I don't see the purpose of that. Just use an
> > aria-label instead. If the heading isn't really the label for a
> > section (and I use the word "section" generically, not as a landmark
> > element), then you shouldn't have a heading. It would add confusion to
> the page outline.
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City, MO
> > < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > > I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
> > > problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
> > >
> > >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
>
>
> --
> *Rob Fentress*
> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
> Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard) <
> http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> LinkedIn Profile
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >


--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech
Electronic Business Card (vCard)
<http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>

From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 1:02PM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

There is a surprisingly difficult balance to be struck when acting on the results of user testing. We aim to:

1. Include features we know will benefit the user groups we tested with.

2. Make sure we don't remove features that might benefit the user groups or people of proficiency levels we didn't test with. As a third party, we don't control the testing budget, so we never get to test with as many people as we would like.

3. Include (or at least not remove) features that might benefit people in the future when user agent support and awareness of accessibility features improve.

4. Not include so many of these features that we create a terrible user experience for some people now.

5. Be aware that proficiency levels vary more than they do for non-disabled people, and take account of the different strategies that people of different proficiency levels use for navigating in and between pages.

There's probably more, but that's plenty to be thinking about.

Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen walker
Sent: 23 July 2018 19:39
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

Good stuff, Steve, and thank you for caveating your results of landmarks
(#4) by saying that your results don't mean we shouldn't use them.

The same is true for skip links (#1), although your results were qualified by screen reader users. As a keyboard user, I use skip links quite often.


On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:40 AM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them
> expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really
> don't care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I
> have observed over 14 years of user testing include:
>
> 1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are
> provided and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because
> the screen reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they
> just stop it and start navigating from wherever it stopped.
>
> 2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly
> to an <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the
> <h1>. This is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier to
> find the H key than the 1 key.
>
> 3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far
> more important than perfect nesting of headings.
>
> 4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception of
> "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't
> know what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise.
> That's not to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are
> not understood well enough to be useful.
>
> Steve
>

From: glen walker
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 1:05PM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

Well, I'm not sure the difficulty of that balance is a surprise to anyone
here (smile).

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> wrote:

> There is a surprisingly difficult balance to be struck when acting on the
> results of user testing. We aim to:
>
>

From: Robert Fentress
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 1:06PM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

Steve, I see you're from the UK. Do think there might be any difference in
usage patterns in the states? For instance, what kind of government
assistance is provided there to train people how to use assistive
technologies and pay for them? Any other demographic issues that would be
relevant?

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 3:01 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Thanks, Steve. That's some very useful info.
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 1:40 PM Steve Green <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them
>> expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really don't
>> care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I have observed
>> over 14 years of user testing include:
>>
>> 1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are
>> provided and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because the
>> screen reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they just stop
>> it and start navigating from wherever it stopped.
>>
>> 2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly to
>> an <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the <h1>.
>> This is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier to find the H
>> key than the 1 key.
>>
>> 3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far more
>> important than perfect nesting of headings.
>>
>> 4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception of
>> "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't know
>> what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise. That's not
>> to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are not understood
>> well enough to be useful.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
>> Robert Fentress
>> Sent: 23 July 2018 18:23
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>
>> Also, assuming the `<nav>`s and search regions are before the `<main>`,
>> do you usually use `<h2>` for those? I think the `<h1>` should be reserved
>> for the first thing in `<main>`, so screen reader users can use key
>> commands to skip to the main content. It seems bad to me to have the
>> document outline set up like that, but I guess certain page layouts
>> necessitate it if you are using aria-labelledby (another reason for
>> aria-label).
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 AM Steve Green <
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes people
>> > use as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't recall any
>> > participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously some people do,
>> > but I have yet to encounter one.
>> >
>> > Steve Green
>> > Managing Director
>> > Test Partners Ltd
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
>> > Jonathan Avila
>> > Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>> >
>> > > . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
>> > being the label for the landmark.
>> >
>> > I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by
>> > heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to benefit
>> > people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on whether this
>> is good or bad
>> > -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is that
>> > many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at
>> > the WebAIM screen reader user survey.
>> >
>> > Jonathan
>> >
>> > Jonathan Avila
>> > Chief Accessibility Officer
>> > Level Access
>> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> > 703.637.8957 office
>> >
>> > Visit us online:
>> > Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
>> >
>> > Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free
>> webinars!
>> >
>> > The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
>> > privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the
>> > individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not
>> > the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
>> > dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
>> strictly prohibited.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>> > Behalf Of glen walker
>> > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>> >
>> > Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is bad
>> > on farmers.gov?
>> >
>> > I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They
>> > have a <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't
>> > recommended but is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They
>> > also use the word "navigation" in their labels for their <nav>
>> > elements so you'll hear the word "navigation" twice, once for the
>> > label and once because it's the type of landmark.
>> >
>> > I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a problem
>> > with using a label on a <nav>.
>> >
>> > Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before
>> > and used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only because
>> > it was natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark. I have
>> > not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of being the
>> > label for the landmark. I don't see the purpose of that. Just use an
>> > aria-label instead. If the heading isn't really the label for a
>> > section (and I use the word "section" generically, not as a landmark
>> > element), then you shouldn't have a heading. It would add confusion to
>> the page outline.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City, MO
>> > < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >
>> > > I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
>> > > problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Rob Fentress*
>> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
>> Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
>> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
>> LinkedIn Profile
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
>> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>> >> >> at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>
>
> --
> *Rob Fentress*
> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
> Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech
> Electronic Business Card (vCard)
> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> LinkedIn Profile
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing
> <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>


--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech
Electronic Business Card (vCard)
<http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>

From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Jul 23 2018 1:20PM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

I don't have any insight into that - there are a few companies like Paciello who have people in both countries, and they may have a view on this.

In the UK the government funds an Access To Work programme that pays for equipment, software and training to help people with disabilities get into work. They typically pay for market-leading products like JAWS, ZoomText and Kurzweil, but training is often limited to a day or less in my experience. I don't know if that is the norm in the UK or how it compares with the US.

We have a huge number of disability support groups in the UK, some local and some national. However, I don't know how much training they provide. I am consistently shocked that even the most proficient participants we work with don't know how to use their assistive technologies effectively.

For instance, not one screen reader user has used JAWS' table navigation commands in 14 years of testing. Just last week one said "I wish there was a way to navigate up and down these columns", and that's not the first time. It's the same with ZoomText and Dragon users. Where we can, we recommend our clients implement accommodations to assist people like this, but sometimes there's nothing you can do.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Robert Fentress
Sent: 23 July 2018 20:06
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

Steve, I see you're from the UK. Do think there might be any difference in usage patterns in the states? For instance, what kind of government assistance is provided there to train people how to use assistive technologies and pay for them? Any other demographic issues that would be relevant?

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 3:01 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Thanks, Steve. That's some very useful info.
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 1:40 PM Steve Green <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them
>> expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really
>> don't care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I
>> have observed over 14 years of user testing include:
>>
>> 1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are
>> provided and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because
>> the screen reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they
>> just stop it and start navigating from wherever it stopped.
>>
>> 2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly
>> to an <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the <h1>.
>> This is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier to find
>> the H key than the 1 key.
>>
>> 3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far
>> more important than perfect nesting of headings.
>>
>> 4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception
>> of "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't
>> know what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise.
>> That's not to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are
>> not understood well enough to be useful.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
>> Of Robert Fentress
>> Sent: 23 July 2018 18:23
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>
>> Also, assuming the `<nav>`s and search regions are before the
>> `<main>`, do you usually use `<h2>` for those? I think the `<h1>`
>> should be reserved for the first thing in `<main>`, so screen reader
>> users can use key commands to skip to the main content. It seems bad
>> to me to have the document outline set up like that, but I guess
>> certain page layouts necessitate it if you are using aria-labelledby
>> (another reason for aria-label).
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 AM Steve Green <
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes
>> > people use as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't
>> > recall any participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously
>> > some people do, but I have yet to encounter one.
>> >
>> > Steve Green
>> > Managing Director
>> > Test Partners Ltd
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
>> > Of Jonathan Avila
>> > Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>> >
>> > > . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose
>> > > of
>> > being the label for the landmark.
>> >
>> > I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by
>> > heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to
>> > benefit people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on
>> > whether this
>> is good or bad
>> > -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is that
>> > many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at
>> > the WebAIM screen reader user survey.
>> >
>> > Jonathan
>> >
>> > Jonathan Avila
>> > Chief Accessibility Officer
>> > Level Access
>> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> > 703.637.8957 office
>> >
>> > Visit us online:
>> > Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
>> >
>> > Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free
>> webinars!
>> >
>> > The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
>> > privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of
>> > the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message
>> > is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
>> > use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication
>> > is
>> strictly prohibited.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>> > Behalf Of glen walker
>> > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>> >
>> > Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is
>> > bad on farmers.gov?
>> >
>> > I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They
>> > have a <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't
>> > recommended but is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They
>> > also use the word "navigation" in their labels for their <nav>
>> > elements so you'll hear the word "navigation" twice, once for the
>> > label and once because it's the type of landmark.
>> >
>> > I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a
>> > problem with using a label on a <nav>.
>> >
>> > Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before
>> > and used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only
>> > because it was natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark.
>> > I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
>> > being the label for the landmark. I don't see the purpose of that.
>> > Just use an aria-label instead. If the heading isn't really the
>> > label for a section (and I use the word "section" generically, not
>> > as a landmark element), then you shouldn't have a heading. It
>> > would add confusion to
>> the page outline.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City,
>> > MO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >
>> > > I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
>> > > problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Rob Fentress*
>> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
>> Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
>> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
>> LinkedIn Profile
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
>> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>
>
> --
> *Rob Fentress*
> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
> Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> LinkedIn Profile
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing
> <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>


--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard) <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Tue, Jul 24 2018 9:10AM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

I'll add to what Steve has said from a US perspective. I agree with all of his comments regarding headings. I also have seen the same challenges with training although in my experience people who have had disabilities for a longer time are more aware of different products and settings then when I started in this field 20 years ago. I have not witnessed the same issue with table navigation that Steve did although I do see people tend to use older less effective commands like the list of links feature to explore a page. Unsurprisingly, people who have more recently acquired a disability in my experience are more likely to not be aware of as many options. It is my experience that many ophthalmologist after determining they can't assist a person is who is loosing vision don't refer the person to services although as Steve points out services and community groups are available to people with disabilities such as those with visual impairment.

In the US many services occur at the state level through the state department of rehabilitation services or it's specific equivalent such as the department for the blind and visually impaired. When I started in this field 20 years ago customers would receive a week or two of training and assistive technology in order to assist them with job placement. At the time government programs such as the CAP program at the Department of Defense offered similar services for participating agencies for Federal employees. In both cases the early 2000s due to budget cuts the level of training that people received dropped to a day or two and the list of assistive technology that would be purchased was constrained. I'm currently not involved with this aspect of service delivery but from what I've heard it is similar now in the very limited scope of what people receive in the form of training. Other organizations exist such as the Lighthouse and similar non-profits to provide services or redu
ced cost services but it is a challenge to reach everyone with the right training and skills people need.

As a side note regarding my comments on the list of links used by screen reader users -- I do find that the list of links is useful if you know the name of the link you are looking for. It can be an effective way to reach something if you know the name. However, if you don't know the name of a link you can spend more time trying to read through the list of links looking for something that could be found easier through navigating the structure of a page. For example, if you were looking for a store locator the link might be sufficiently named "find a store" or "store location" or even "my local store" but those begin with different letters as such if you are trying to navigate by first letter navigation in a list of links you will likely have difficulty. A better way might be to search for the word "store" on the page. In my experience screen readers have also not updated their list of links functionality to support new ways of labeling things such as via aria-describedby and
don't include the current list items, sentence, or table cell information in the list of links. In short, usability testing with users that have disabilities may reveal limitations in access to training, limitations and bugs in assistive technology in addition to bugs or design flaws in a website or application. So understanding and taking action on user findings as Steve points out is a tricky situation. It takes an expert to unpack the findings and figure out the best solution. I'm not blaming users here -- so please don't suggest that -- I'm saying that the challenges are complex in understanding and addressing the issues users with disabilities face in accessing digital content.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 3:20 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

I don't have any insight into that - there are a few companies like Paciello who have people in both countries, and they may have a view on this.

In the UK the government funds an Access To Work programme that pays for equipment, software and training to help people with disabilities get into work. They typically pay for market-leading products like JAWS, ZoomText and Kurzweil, but training is often limited to a day or less in my experience. I don't know if that is the norm in the UK or how it compares with the US.

We have a huge number of disability support groups in the UK, some local and some national. However, I don't know how much training they provide. I am consistently shocked that even the most proficient participants we work with don't know how to use their assistive technologies effectively.

For instance, not one screen reader user has used JAWS' table navigation commands in 14 years of testing. Just last week one said "I wish there was a way to navigate up and down these columns", and that's not the first time. It's the same with ZoomText and Dragon users. Where we can, we recommend our clients implement accommodations to assist people like this, but sometimes there's nothing you can do.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Robert Fentress
Sent: 23 July 2018 20:06
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

Steve, I see you're from the UK. Do think there might be any difference in usage patterns in the states? For instance, what kind of government assistance is provided there to train people how to use assistive technologies and pay for them? Any other demographic issues that would be relevant?

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 3:01 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Thanks, Steve. That's some very useful info.
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 1:40 PM Steve Green <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them
>> expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really
>> don't care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I
>> have observed over 14 years of user testing include:
>>
>> 1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are
>> provided and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because
>> the screen reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they
>> just stop it and start navigating from wherever it stopped.
>>
>> 2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly
>> to an <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the <h1>.
>> This is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier to find
>> the H key than the 1 key.
>>
>> 3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far
>> more important than perfect nesting of headings.
>>
>> 4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception
>> of "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't
>> know what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise.
>> That's not to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are
>> not understood well enough to be useful.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
>> Of Robert Fentress
>> Sent: 23 July 2018 18:23
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>
>> Also, assuming the `<nav>`s and search regions are before the
>> `<main>`, do you usually use `<h2>` for those? I think the `<h1>`
>> should be reserved for the first thing in `<main>`, so screen reader
>> users can use key commands to skip to the main content. It seems bad
>> to me to have the document outline set up like that, but I guess
>> certain page layouts necessitate it if you are using aria-labelledby
>> (another reason for aria-label).
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 AM Steve Green <
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes
>> > people use as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't
>> > recall any participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously
>> > some people do, but I have yet to encounter one.
>> >
>> > Steve Green
>> > Managing Director
>> > Test Partners Ltd
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
>> > Of Jonathan Avila
>> > Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>> >
>> > > . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose
>> > > of
>> > being the label for the landmark.
>> >
>> > I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by
>> > heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to
>> > benefit people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on
>> > whether this
>> is good or bad
>> > -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is that
>> > many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at
>> > the WebAIM screen reader user survey.
>> >
>> > Jonathan
>> >
>> > Jonathan Avila
>> > Chief Accessibility Officer
>> > Level Access
>> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> > 703.637.8957 office
>> >
>> > Visit us online:
>> > Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
>> >
>> > Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free
>> webinars!
>> >
>> > The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
>> > privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of
>> > the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message
>> > is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
>> > use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication
>> > is
>> strictly prohibited.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>> > Behalf Of glen walker
>> > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>> >
>> > Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is
>> > bad on farmers.gov?
>> >
>> > I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They
>> > have a <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't
>> > recommended but is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They
>> > also use the word "navigation" in their labels for their <nav>
>> > elements so you'll hear the word "navigation" twice, once for the
>> > label and once because it's the type of landmark.
>> >
>> > I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a
>> > problem with using a label on a <nav>.
>> >
>> > Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before
>> > and used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only
>> > because it was natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark.
>> > I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
>> > being the label for the landmark. I don't see the purpose of that.
>> > Just use an aria-label instead. If the heading isn't really the
>> > label for a section (and I use the word "section" generically, not
>> > as a landmark element), then you shouldn't have a heading. It
>> > would add confusion to
>> the page outline.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City,
>> > MO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >
>> > > I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
>> > > problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Rob Fentress*
>> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
>> Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
>> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
>> LinkedIn Profile
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
>> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>
>
> --
> *Rob Fentress*
> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
> Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> LinkedIn Profile
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing
> <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>


--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard) <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>

From: Robert Fentress
Date: Tue, Jul 24 2018 4:20PM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks, Steve! That is very helpful.

Your comments point to the challenge of making an experience that is not
only technically accessible but also maximally usable for as many people as
possible. Though it depends on your audience and your ability to pay for
usability testing with people with disabilities, I wonder if one strategy
might be to code in such a way as to provide the most efficient and least
noisy experience that is accessibility-supported, while providing initial
guidance for users who may not be familiar with the more modern features of
their assistive technologies. That may seem patronizing, but there is a
bit of a chicken and egg sort of problem here. If you limit yourself to
techniques that people are already familiar with, even if more efficient
methods exist that are supported by the user's assistive technology, then
it seems like you'll always be stuck with a sub-optimal experience.
Balance in all things, of course, but technology evolves--usually for a
reason--and we should take advantage of the affordances it provides.

Best,
Rob

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 11:10 AM Jonathan Avila < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> I'll add to what Steve has said from a US perspective. I agree with all
> of his comments regarding headings. I also have seen the same challenges
> with training although in my experience people who have had disabilities
> for a longer time are more aware of different products and settings then
> when I started in this field 20 years ago. I have not witnessed the same
> issue with table navigation that Steve did although I do see people tend to
> use older less effective commands like the list of links feature to explore
> a page. Unsurprisingly, people who have more recently acquired a
> disability in my experience are more likely to not be aware of as many
> options. It is my experience that many ophthalmologist after determining
> they can't assist a person is who is loosing vision don't refer the person
> to services although as Steve points out services and community groups are
> available to people with disabilities such as those with visual impairment.
>
> In the US many services occur at the state level through the state
> department of rehabilitation services or it's specific equivalent such as
> the department for the blind and visually impaired. When I started in this
> field 20 years ago customers would receive a week or two of training and
> assistive technology in order to assist them with job placement. At the
> time government programs such as the CAP program at the Department of
> Defense offered similar services for participating agencies for Federal
> employees. In both cases the early 2000s due to budget cuts the level of
> training that people received dropped to a day or two and the list of
> assistive technology that would be purchased was constrained. I'm
> currently not involved with this aspect of service delivery but from what
> I've heard it is similar now in the very limited scope of what people
> receive in the form of training. Other organizations exist such as the
> Lighthouse and similar non-profits to provide services or redu
> ced cost services but it is a challenge to reach everyone with the right
> training and skills people need.
>
> As a side note regarding my comments on the list of links used by screen
> reader users -- I do find that the list of links is useful if you know the
> name of the link you are looking for. It can be an effective way to reach
> something if you know the name. However, if you don't know the name of a
> link you can spend more time trying to read through the list of links
> looking for something that could be found easier through navigating the
> structure of a page. For example, if you were looking for a store locator
> the link might be sufficiently named "find a store" or "store location" or
> even "my local store" but those begin with different letters as such if you
> are trying to navigate by first letter navigation in a list of links you
> will likely have difficulty. A better way might be to search for the word
> "store" on the page. In my experience screen readers have also not
> updated their list of links functionality to support new ways of labeling
> things such as via aria-describedby and
> don't include the current list items, sentence, or table cell information
> in the list of links. In short, usability testing with users that have
> disabilities may reveal limitations in access to training, limitations and
> bugs in assistive technology in addition to bugs or design flaws in a
> website or application. So understanding and taking action on user
> findings as Steve points out is a tricky situation. It takes an expert to
> unpack the findings and figure out the best solution. I'm not blaming
> users here -- so please don't suggest that -- I'm saying that the
> challenges are complex in understanding and addressing the issues users
> with disabilities face in accessing digital content.
>
> Jonathan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Steve Green
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 3:20 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>
> I don't have any insight into that - there are a few companies like
> Paciello who have people in both countries, and they may have a view on
> this.
>
> In the UK the government funds an Access To Work programme that pays for
> equipment, software and training to help people with disabilities get into
> work. They typically pay for market-leading products like JAWS, ZoomText
> and Kurzweil, but training is often limited to a day or less in my
> experience. I don't know if that is the norm in the UK or how it compares
> with the US.
>
> We have a huge number of disability support groups in the UK, some local
> and some national. However, I don't know how much training they provide. I
> am consistently shocked that even the most proficient participants we work
> with don't know how to use their assistive technologies effectively.
>
> For instance, not one screen reader user has used JAWS' table navigation
> commands in 14 years of testing. Just last week one said "I wish there was
> a way to navigate up and down these columns", and that's not the first
> time. It's the same with ZoomText and Dragon users. Where we can, we
> recommend our clients implement accommodations to assist people like this,
> but sometimes there's nothing you can do.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Robert Fentress
> Sent: 23 July 2018 20:06
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>
> Steve, I see you're from the UK. Do think there might be any difference
> in usage patterns in the states? For instance, what kind of government
> assistance is provided there to train people how to use assistive
> technologies and pay for them? Any other demographic issues that would be
> relevant?
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 3:01 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Thanks, Steve. That's some very useful info.
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 1:40 PM Steve Green <
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> >> Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them
> >> expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really
> >> don't care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I
> >> have observed over 14 years of user testing include:
> >>
> >> 1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are
> >> provided and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because
> >> the screen reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they
> >> just stop it and start navigating from wherever it stopped.
> >>
> >> 2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly
> >> to an <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the
> <h1>.
> >> This is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier to find
> >> the H key than the 1 key.
> >>
> >> 3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far
> >> more important than perfect nesting of headings.
> >>
> >> 4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception
> >> of "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't
> >> know what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise.
> >> That's not to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are
> >> not understood well enough to be useful.
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
> >> Of Robert Fentress
> >> Sent: 23 July 2018 18:23
> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> >> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
> >>
> >> Also, assuming the `<nav>`s and search regions are before the
> >> `<main>`, do you usually use `<h2>` for those? I think the `<h1>`
> >> should be reserved for the first thing in `<main>`, so screen reader
> >> users can use key commands to skip to the main content. It seems bad
> >> to me to have the document outline set up like that, but I guess
> >> certain page layouts necessitate it if you are using aria-labelledby
> >> (another reason for aria-label).
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 AM Steve Green <
> >> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes
> >> > people use as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't
> >> > recall any participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously
> >> > some people do, but I have yet to encounter one.
> >> >
> >> > Steve Green
> >> > Managing Director
> >> > Test Partners Ltd
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
> >> > Of Jonathan Avila
> >> > Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
> >> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> >> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
> >> >
> >> > > . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose
> >> > > of
> >> > being the label for the landmark.
> >> >
> >> > I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by
> >> > heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to
> >> > benefit people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on
> >> > whether this
> >> is good or bad
> >> > -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is
> that
> >> > many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at
> >> > the WebAIM screen reader user survey.
> >> >
> >> > Jonathan
> >> >
> >> > Jonathan Avila
> >> > Chief Accessibility Officer
> >> > Level Access
> >> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> > 703.637.8957 office
> >> >
> >> > Visit us online:
> >> > Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
> >> >
> >> > Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free
> >> webinars!
> >> >
> >> > The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
> >> > privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of
> >> > the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message
> >> > is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
> >> > use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication
> >> > is
> >> strictly prohibited.
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> >> > Behalf Of glen walker
> >> > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
> >> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> >> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
> >> >
> >> > Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is
> >> > bad on farmers.gov?
> >> >
> >> > I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They
> >> > have a <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't
> >> > recommended but is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They
> >> > also use the word "navigation" in their labels for their <nav>
> >> > elements so you'll hear the word "navigation" twice, once for the
> >> > label and once because it's the type of landmark.
> >> >
> >> > I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a
> >> > problem with using a label on a <nav>.
> >> >
> >> > Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before
> >> > and used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only
> >> > because it was natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark.
> >> > I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
> >> > being the label for the landmark. I don't see the purpose of that.
> >> > Just use an aria-label instead. If the heading isn't really the
> >> > label for a section (and I use the word "section" generically, not
> >> > as a landmark element), then you shouldn't have a heading. It
> >> > would add confusion to
> >> the page outline.
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City,
> >> > MO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
> >> > > problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > >> > > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > > >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> *Rob Fentress*
> >> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
> >> Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
> >> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> >> LinkedIn Profile
> >> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> >> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
> >> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
> >> > >> > >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > >> > >> > >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Rob Fentress*
> > *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
> > Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
> > <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> > LinkedIn Profile
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> > VT Zoom Personal Conferencing
> > <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
> >
>
>
> --
> *Rob Fentress*
> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
> Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard) <
> http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> LinkedIn Profile
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >


--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech
Electronic Business Card (vCard)
<http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>

From: Robert Fentress
Date: Tue, Jul 24 2018 4:24PM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

I meant to say "Thanks, Jonathan." I already thanked Steve. Haha!

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 6:20 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Thanks, Steve! That is very helpful.
>
> Your comments point to the challenge of making an experience that is not
> only technically accessible but also maximally usable for as many people as
> possible. Though it depends on your audience and your ability to pay for
> usability testing with people with disabilities, I wonder if one strategy
> might be to code in such a way as to provide the most efficient and least
> noisy experience that is accessibility-supported, while providing initial
> guidance for users who may not be familiar with the more modern features of
> their assistive technologies. That may seem patronizing, but there is a
> bit of a chicken and egg sort of problem here. If you limit yourself to
> techniques that people are already familiar with, even if more efficient
> methods exist that are supported by the user's assistive technology, then
> it seems like you'll always be stuck with a sub-optimal experience.
> Balance in all things, of course, but technology evolves--usually for a
> reason--and we should take advantage of the affordances it provides.
>
> Best,
> Rob
>
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 11:10 AM Jonathan Avila < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> I'll add to what Steve has said from a US perspective. I agree with all
>> of his comments regarding headings. I also have seen the same challenges
>> with training although in my experience people who have had disabilities
>> for a longer time are more aware of different products and settings then
>> when I started in this field 20 years ago. I have not witnessed the same
>> issue with table navigation that Steve did although I do see people tend to
>> use older less effective commands like the list of links feature to explore
>> a page. Unsurprisingly, people who have more recently acquired a
>> disability in my experience are more likely to not be aware of as many
>> options. It is my experience that many ophthalmologist after determining
>> they can't assist a person is who is loosing vision don't refer the person
>> to services although as Steve points out services and community groups are
>> available to people with disabilities such as those with visual impairment.
>>
>> In the US many services occur at the state level through the state
>> department of rehabilitation services or it's specific equivalent such as
>> the department for the blind and visually impaired. When I started in this
>> field 20 years ago customers would receive a week or two of training and
>> assistive technology in order to assist them with job placement. At the
>> time government programs such as the CAP program at the Department of
>> Defense offered similar services for participating agencies for Federal
>> employees. In both cases the early 2000s due to budget cuts the level of
>> training that people received dropped to a day or two and the list of
>> assistive technology that would be purchased was constrained. I'm
>> currently not involved with this aspect of service delivery but from what
>> I've heard it is similar now in the very limited scope of what people
>> receive in the form of training. Other organizations exist such as the
>> Lighthouse and similar non-profits to provide services or redu
>> ced cost services but it is a challenge to reach everyone with the right
>> training and skills people need.
>>
>> As a side note regarding my comments on the list of links used by screen
>> reader users -- I do find that the list of links is useful if you know the
>> name of the link you are looking for. It can be an effective way to reach
>> something if you know the name. However, if you don't know the name of a
>> link you can spend more time trying to read through the list of links
>> looking for something that could be found easier through navigating the
>> structure of a page. For example, if you were looking for a store locator
>> the link might be sufficiently named "find a store" or "store location" or
>> even "my local store" but those begin with different letters as such if you
>> are trying to navigate by first letter navigation in a list of links you
>> will likely have difficulty. A better way might be to search for the word
>> "store" on the page. In my experience screen readers have also not
>> updated their list of links functionality to support new ways of labeling
>> things such as via aria-describedby and
>> don't include the current list items, sentence, or table cell
>> information in the list of links. In short, usability testing with users
>> that have disabilities may reveal limitations in access to training,
>> limitations and bugs in assistive technology in addition to bugs or design
>> flaws in a website or application. So understanding and taking action on
>> user findings as Steve points out is a tricky situation. It takes an
>> expert to unpack the findings and figure out the best solution. I'm not
>> blaming users here -- so please don't suggest that -- I'm saying that the
>> challenges are complex in understanding and addressing the issues users
>> with disabilities face in accessing digital content.
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
>> Steve Green
>> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 3:20 PM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>
>> I don't have any insight into that - there are a few companies like
>> Paciello who have people in both countries, and they may have a view on
>> this.
>>
>> In the UK the government funds an Access To Work programme that pays for
>> equipment, software and training to help people with disabilities get into
>> work. They typically pay for market-leading products like JAWS, ZoomText
>> and Kurzweil, but training is often limited to a day or less in my
>> experience. I don't know if that is the norm in the UK or how it compares
>> with the US.
>>
>> We have a huge number of disability support groups in the UK, some local
>> and some national. However, I don't know how much training they provide. I
>> am consistently shocked that even the most proficient participants we work
>> with don't know how to use their assistive technologies effectively.
>>
>> For instance, not one screen reader user has used JAWS' table navigation
>> commands in 14 years of testing. Just last week one said "I wish there was
>> a way to navigate up and down these columns", and that's not the first
>> time. It's the same with ZoomText and Dragon users. Where we can, we
>> recommend our clients implement accommodations to assist people like this,
>> but sometimes there's nothing you can do.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
>> Robert Fentress
>> Sent: 23 July 2018 20:06
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>
>> Steve, I see you're from the UK. Do think there might be any difference
>> in usage patterns in the states? For instance, what kind of government
>> assistance is provided there to train people how to use assistive
>> technologies and pay for them? Any other demographic issues that would be
>> relevant?
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 3:01 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> > Thanks, Steve. That's some very useful info.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 1:40 PM Steve Green <
>> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them
>> >> expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really
>> >> don't care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I
>> >> have observed over 14 years of user testing include:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are
>> >> provided and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because
>> >> the screen reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they
>> >> just stop it and start navigating from wherever it stopped.
>> >>
>> >> 2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly
>> >> to an <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the
>> <h1>.
>> >> This is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier to find
>> >> the H key than the 1 key.
>> >>
>> >> 3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far
>> >> more important than perfect nesting of headings.
>> >>
>> >> 4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception
>> >> of "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't
>> >> know what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise.
>> >> That's not to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are
>> >> not understood well enough to be useful.
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
>> >> Of Robert Fentress
>> >> Sent: 23 July 2018 18:23
>> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> >> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>> >>
>> >> Also, assuming the `<nav>`s and search regions are before the
>> >> `<main>`, do you usually use `<h2>` for those? I think the `<h1>`
>> >> should be reserved for the first thing in `<main>`, so screen reader
>> >> users can use key commands to skip to the main content. It seems bad
>> >> to me to have the document outline set up like that, but I guess
>> >> certain page layouts necessitate it if you are using aria-labelledby
>> >> (another reason for aria-label).
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 AM Steve Green <
>> >> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes
>> >> > people use as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't
>> >> > recall any participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously
>> >> > some people do, but I have yet to encounter one.
>> >> >
>> >> > Steve Green
>> >> > Managing Director
>> >> > Test Partners Ltd
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
>> >> > Of Jonathan Avila
>> >> > Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
>> >> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> >> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>> >> >
>> >> > > . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose
>> >> > > of
>> >> > being the label for the landmark.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by
>> >> > heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to
>> >> > benefit people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on
>> >> > whether this
>> >> is good or bad
>> >> > -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is
>> that
>> >> > many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at
>> >> > the WebAIM screen reader user survey.
>> >> >
>> >> > Jonathan
>> >> >
>> >> > Jonathan Avila
>> >> > Chief Accessibility Officer
>> >> > Level Access
>> >> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >> > 703.637.8957 office
>> >> >
>> >> > Visit us online:
>> >> > Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
>> >> >
>> >> > Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free
>> >> webinars!
>> >> >
>> >> > The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
>> >> > privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of
>> >> > the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message
>> >> > is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
>> >> > use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication
>> >> > is
>> >> strictly prohibited.
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>> >> > Behalf Of glen walker
>> >> > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
>> >> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> >> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is
>> >> > bad on farmers.gov?
>> >> >
>> >> > I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They
>> >> > have a <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't
>> >> > recommended but is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They
>> >> > also use the word "navigation" in their labels for their <nav>
>> >> > elements so you'll hear the word "navigation" twice, once for the
>> >> > label and once because it's the type of landmark.
>> >> >
>> >> > I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a
>> >> > problem with using a label on a <nav>.
>> >> >
>> >> > Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before
>> >> > and used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only
>> >> > because it was natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark.
>> >> > I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
>> >> > being the label for the landmark. I don't see the purpose of that.
>> >> > Just use an aria-label instead. If the heading isn't really the
>> >> > label for a section (and I use the word "section" generically, not
>> >> > as a landmark element), then you shouldn't have a heading. It
>> >> > would add confusion to
>> >> the page outline.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City,
>> >> > MO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
>> >> > > problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> > >> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> *Rob Fentress*
>> >> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
>> >> Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
>> >> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
>> >> LinkedIn Profile
>> >> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>> >> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
>> >> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>> >> >> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > *Rob Fentress*
>> > *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
>> > Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
>> > <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
>> > LinkedIn Profile
>> > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>> > VT Zoom Personal Conferencing
>> > <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Rob Fentress*
>> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
>> Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
>> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
>> LinkedIn Profile
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
>> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>> >> >> at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>
>
> --
> *Rob Fentress*
> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
> Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech
> Electronic Business Card (vCard)
> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> LinkedIn Profile
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing
> <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>


--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech
Electronic Business Card (vCard)
<http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>

From: Mohith BP
Date: Tue, Jul 24 2018 11:36PM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi,

Adding to the Steve's point in Android Talkback the quick navigation
setting is same for landmark and heading so one has to listen twice
the same information if the heading and region has same information.

As most of the sites does not have uniformity such as marking main
content properly many a times I navigate with the region navigation
and end up in some other content which is not actually main content.

It is good to mark as less regions as possible such as Navigation
Search and Main, etc.
The tricky thing is <aside> is widely used in most of the sites which
is also a region.


Thanks & Regards,
Mohith B. P.


On 7/25/18, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I meant to say "Thanks, Jonathan." I already thanked Steve. Haha!
>
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 6:20 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Steve! That is very helpful.
>>
>> Your comments point to the challenge of making an experience that is not
>> only technically accessible but also maximally usable for as many people
>> as
>> possible. Though it depends on your audience and your ability to pay for
>> usability testing with people with disabilities, I wonder if one strategy
>> might be to code in such a way as to provide the most efficient and least
>> noisy experience that is accessibility-supported, while providing initial
>> guidance for users who may not be familiar with the more modern features
>> of
>> their assistive technologies. That may seem patronizing, but there is a
>> bit of a chicken and egg sort of problem here. If you limit yourself to
>> techniques that people are already familiar with, even if more efficient
>> methods exist that are supported by the user's assistive technology, then
>> it seems like you'll always be stuck with a sub-optimal experience.
>> Balance in all things, of course, but technology evolves--usually for a
>> reason--and we should take advantage of the affordances it provides.
>>
>> Best,
>> Rob
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 11:10 AM Jonathan Avila
>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'll add to what Steve has said from a US perspective. I agree with all
>>> of his comments regarding headings. I also have seen the same
>>> challenges
>>> with training although in my experience people who have had disabilities
>>> for a longer time are more aware of different products and settings then
>>> when I started in this field 20 years ago. I have not witnessed the
>>> same
>>> issue with table navigation that Steve did although I do see people tend
>>> to
>>> use older less effective commands like the list of links feature to
>>> explore
>>> a page. Unsurprisingly, people who have more recently acquired a
>>> disability in my experience are more likely to not be aware of as many
>>> options. It is my experience that many ophthalmologist after
>>> determining
>>> they can't assist a person is who is loosing vision don't refer the
>>> person
>>> to services although as Steve points out services and community groups
>>> are
>>> available to people with disabilities such as those with visual
>>> impairment.
>>>
>>> In the US many services occur at the state level through the state
>>> department of rehabilitation services or it's specific equivalent such
>>> as
>>> the department for the blind and visually impaired. When I started in
>>> this
>>> field 20 years ago customers would receive a week or two of training and
>>> assistive technology in order to assist them with job placement. At the
>>> time government programs such as the CAP program at the Department of
>>> Defense offered similar services for participating agencies for Federal
>>> employees. In both cases the early 2000s due to budget cuts the level
>>> of
>>> training that people received dropped to a day or two and the list of
>>> assistive technology that would be purchased was constrained. I'm
>>> currently not involved with this aspect of service delivery but from
>>> what
>>> I've heard it is similar now in the very limited scope of what people
>>> receive in the form of training. Other organizations exist such as the
>>> Lighthouse and similar non-profits to provide services or redu
>>> ced cost services but it is a challenge to reach everyone with the
>>> right
>>> training and skills people need.
>>>
>>> As a side note regarding my comments on the list of links used by screen
>>> reader users -- I do find that the list of links is useful if you know
>>> the
>>> name of the link you are looking for. It can be an effective way to
>>> reach
>>> something if you know the name. However, if you don't know the name of
>>> a
>>> link you can spend more time trying to read through the list of links
>>> looking for something that could be found easier through navigating the
>>> structure of a page. For example, if you were looking for a store
>>> locator
>>> the link might be sufficiently named "find a store" or "store location"
>>> or
>>> even "my local store" but those begin with different letters as such if
>>> you
>>> are trying to navigate by first letter navigation in a list of links you
>>> will likely have difficulty. A better way might be to search for the
>>> word
>>> "store" on the page. In my experience screen readers have also not
>>> updated their list of links functionality to support new ways of
>>> labeling
>>> things such as via aria-describedby and
>>> don't include the current list items, sentence, or table cell
>>> information in the list of links. In short, usability testing with
>>> users
>>> that have disabilities may reveal limitations in access to training,
>>> limitations and bugs in assistive technology in addition to bugs or
>>> design
>>> flaws in a website or application. So understanding and taking action
>>> on
>>> user findings as Steve points out is a tricky situation. It takes an
>>> expert to unpack the findings and figure out the best solution. I'm
>>> not
>>> blaming users here -- so please don't suggest that -- I'm saying that
>>> the
>>> challenges are complex in understanding and addressing the issues users
>>> with disabilities face in accessing digital content.
>>>
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
>>> Steve Green
>>> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 3:20 PM
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>>
>>> I don't have any insight into that - there are a few companies like
>>> Paciello who have people in both countries, and they may have a view on
>>> this.
>>>
>>> In the UK the government funds an Access To Work programme that pays for
>>> equipment, software and training to help people with disabilities get
>>> into
>>> work. They typically pay for market-leading products like JAWS, ZoomText
>>> and Kurzweil, but training is often limited to a day or less in my
>>> experience. I don't know if that is the norm in the UK or how it
>>> compares
>>> with the US.
>>>
>>> We have a huge number of disability support groups in the UK, some local
>>> and some national. However, I don't know how much training they provide.
>>> I
>>> am consistently shocked that even the most proficient participants we
>>> work
>>> with don't know how to use their assistive technologies effectively.
>>>
>>> For instance, not one screen reader user has used JAWS' table navigation
>>> commands in 14 years of testing. Just last week one said "I wish there
>>> was
>>> a way to navigate up and down these columns", and that's not the first
>>> time. It's the same with ZoomText and Dragon users. Where we can, we
>>> recommend our clients implement accommodations to assist people like
>>> this,
>>> but sometimes there's nothing you can do.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
>>> Robert Fentress
>>> Sent: 23 July 2018 20:06
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>>
>>> Steve, I see you're from the UK. Do think there might be any difference
>>> in usage patterns in the states? For instance, what kind of government
>>> assistance is provided there to train people how to use assistive
>>> technologies and pay for them? Any other demographic issues that would
>>> be
>>> relevant?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 3:01 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>
>>> > Thanks, Steve. That's some very useful info.
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 1:40 PM Steve Green <
>>> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them
>>> >> expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really
>>> >> don't care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I
>>> >> have observed over 14 years of user testing include:
>>> >>
>>> >> 1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are
>>> >> provided and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because
>>> >> the screen reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they
>>> >> just stop it and start navigating from wherever it stopped.
>>> >>
>>> >> 2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly
>>> >> to an <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the
>>> <h1>.
>>> >> This is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier to find
>>> >> the H key than the 1 key.
>>> >>
>>> >> 3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far
>>> >> more important than perfect nesting of headings.
>>> >>
>>> >> 4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception
>>> >> of "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't
>>> >> know what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise.
>>> >> That's not to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are
>>> >> not understood well enough to be useful.
>>> >>
>>> >> Steve
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
>>> >> Of Robert Fentress
>>> >> Sent: 23 July 2018 18:23
>>> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>>> >> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>> >>
>>> >> Also, assuming the `<nav>`s and search regions are before the
>>> >> `<main>`, do you usually use `<h2>` for those? I think the `<h1>`
>>> >> should be reserved for the first thing in `<main>`, so screen reader
>>> >> users can use key commands to skip to the main content. It seems bad
>>> >> to me to have the document outline set up like that, but I guess
>>> >> certain page layouts necessitate it if you are using aria-labelledby
>>> >> (another reason for aria-label).
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 AM Steve Green <
>>> >> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes
>>> >> > people use as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't
>>> >> > recall any participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously
>>> >> > some people do, but I have yet to encounter one.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Steve Green
>>> >> > Managing Director
>>> >> > Test Partners Ltd
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>> >> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
>>> >> > Of Jonathan Avila
>>> >> > Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
>>> >> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>>> >> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > > . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose
>>> >> > > of
>>> >> > being the label for the landmark.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by
>>> >> > heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to
>>> >> > benefit people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on
>>> >> > whether this
>>> >> is good or bad
>>> >> > -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is
>>> that
>>> >> > many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at
>>> >> > the WebAIM screen reader user survey.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Jonathan
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Jonathan Avila
>>> >> > Chief Accessibility Officer
>>> >> > Level Access
>>> >> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> >> > 703.637.8957 office
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Visit us online:
>>> >> > Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free
>>> >> webinars!
>>> >> >
>>> >> > The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
>>> >> > privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of
>>> >> > the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message
>>> >> > is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
>>> >> > use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication
>>> >> > is
>>> >> strictly prohibited.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>> >> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>> >> > Behalf Of glen walker
>>> >> > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
>>> >> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>>> >> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is
>>> >> > bad on farmers.gov?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They
>>> >> > have a <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't
>>> >> > recommended but is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They
>>> >> > also use the word "navigation" in their labels for their <nav>
>>> >> > elements so you'll hear the word "navigation" twice, once for the
>>> >> > label and once because it's the type of landmark.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a
>>> >> > problem with using a label on a <nav>.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before
>>> >> > and used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only
>>> >> > because it was natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark.
>>> >> > I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
>>> >> > being the label for the landmark. I don't see the purpose of that.
>>> >> > Just use an aria-label instead. If the heading isn't really the
>>> >> > label for a section (and I use the word "section" generically, not
>>> >> > as a landmark element), then you shouldn't have a heading. It
>>> >> > would add confusion to
>>> >> the page outline.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City,
>>> >> > MO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > > I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
>>> >> > > problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >> > >>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> *Rob Fentress*
>>> >> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
>>> >> Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
>>> >> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
>>> >> LinkedIn Profile
>>> >> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>>> >> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
>>> >> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > *Rob Fentress*
>>> > *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
>>> > Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
>>> > <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
>>> > LinkedIn Profile
>>> > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>>> > VT Zoom Personal Conferencing
>>> > <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *Rob Fentress*
>>> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
>>> Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card
>>> (vCard)
>>> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
>>> LinkedIn Profile
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>>> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
>>> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>>> >>> >>> at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >>> >>> >>> at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Rob Fentress*
>> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
>> Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech
>> Electronic Business Card (vCard)
>> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
>> LinkedIn Profile
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing
>> <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Rob Fentress*
> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
> Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech
> Electronic Business Card (vCard)
> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> LinkedIn Profile
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing
> <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
> > > > >

From: Jim Homme
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2018 8:13AM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi,
We use skip links even if a page is marked up with landmarks because they work best for people with motor disabilities. Personally, I usually try to hit the number 1 when a page loads. I'm a screen reader user. I never hit the skip link if there is one, because that causes so much chatter that it takes too long to figure out where I am once the verbalization settles down. That, and sometimes skip links don't work even though they are there.

Jim



==========
Jim Homme
Product Manager
Digital Accessibility
Bender Consulting Services
412-787-8567
https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
People with disabilities, access job openings at https://www.benderconsult.com/careers/job-openings


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Robert Fentress
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 3:02 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

Thanks, Steve. That's some very useful info.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 1:40 PM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them
> expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really
> don't care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I
> have observed over 14 years of user testing include:
>
> 1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are
> provided and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because
> the screen reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they
> just stop it and start navigating from wherever it stopped.
>
> 2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly
> to an <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the
> <h1>. This is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier to
> find the H key than the 1 key.
>
> 3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far
> more important than perfect nesting of headings.
>
> 4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception of
> "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't
> know what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise.
> That's not to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are
> not understood well enough to be useful.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Robert Fentress
> Sent: 23 July 2018 18:23
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>
> Also, assuming the `<nav>`s and search regions are before the
> `<main>`, do you usually use `<h2>` for those? I think the `<h1>`
> should be reserved for the first thing in `<main>`, so screen reader
> users can use key commands to skip to the main content. It seems bad
> to me to have the document outline set up like that, but I guess
> certain page layouts necessitate it if you are using aria-labelledby
> (another reason for aria-label).
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 AM Steve Green <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes
> > people use as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't
> > recall any participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously some
> > people do, but I have yet to encounter one.
> >
> > Steve Green
> > Managing Director
> > Test Partners Ltd
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
> > Of Jonathan Avila
> > Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
> >
> > > . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose
> > > of
> > being the label for the landmark.
> >
> > I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by
> > heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to benefit
> > people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on whether
> > this is
> good or bad
> > -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is that
> > many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at
> > the WebAIM screen reader user survey.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > Jonathan Avila
> > Chief Accessibility Officer
> > Level Access
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > 703.637.8957 office
> >
> > Visit us online:
> > Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
> >
> > Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free
> webinars!
> >
> > The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
> > privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of
> > the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message
> > is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
> > dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
> > strictly
> prohibited.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > Behalf Of glen walker
> > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
> >
> > Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is
> > bad on farmers.gov?
> >
> > I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They
> > have a <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't
> > recommended but is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They
> > also use the word "navigation" in their labels for their <nav>
> > elements so you'll hear the word "navigation" twice, once for the
> > label and once because it's the type of landmark.
> >
> > I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a
> > problem with using a label on a <nav>.
> >
> > Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before
> > and used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only
> > because it was natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark.
> > I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
> > being the label for the landmark. I don't see the purpose of that.
> > Just use an aria-label instead. If the heading isn't really the
> > label for a section (and I use the word "section" generically, not
> > as a landmark element), then you shouldn't have a heading. It would
> > add confusion to
> the page outline.
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City,
> > MO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > > I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
> > > problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
> > >
> > >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
>
>
> --
> *Rob Fentress*
> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
> Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard) <
> http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> LinkedIn Profile
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard) <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>

From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2018 11:02AM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

J

Is there a particular pattern to avoid to improve chances of in page links accurately working for all users? Also, for those combinations of AT and browser where the in page links don’t both visually and focusable move to the referenced anchor are these just seen as as outstanding bugs by the accessibility community, or just another item to be aware of.

> On Jul 25, 2018, at 10:13 AM, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi,
> We use skip links even if a page is marked up with landmarks because they work best for people with motor disabilities. Personally, I usually try to hit the number 1 when a page loads. I'm a screen reader user. I never hit the skip link if there is one, because that causes so much chatter that it takes too long to figure out where I am once the verbalization settles down. That, and sometimes skip links don't work even though they are there.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> =========> Jim Homme
> Product Manager
> Digital Accessibility
> Bender Consulting Services
> 412-787-8567
> https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
> People with disabilities, access job openings at https://www.benderconsult.com/careers/job-openings
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Robert Fentress
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 3:02 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>
> Thanks, Steve. That's some very useful info.
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 1:40 PM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them
>> expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really
>> don't care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I
>> have observed over 14 years of user testing include:
>>
>> 1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are
>> provided and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because
>> the screen reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they
>> just stop it and start navigating from wherever it stopped.
>>
>> 2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly
>> to an <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the
>> <h1>. This is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier to
>> find the H key than the 1 key.
>>
>> 3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far
>> more important than perfect nesting of headings.
>>
>> 4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception of
>> "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't
>> know what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise.
>> That's not to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are
>> not understood well enough to be useful.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
>> Robert Fentress
>> Sent: 23 July 2018 18:23
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>
>> Also, assuming the `<nav>`s and search regions are before the
>> `<main>`, do you usually use `<h2>` for those? I think the `<h1>`
>> should be reserved for the first thing in `<main>`, so screen reader
>> users can use key commands to skip to the main content. It seems bad
>> to me to have the document outline set up like that, but I guess
>> certain page layouts necessitate it if you are using aria-labelledby
>> (another reason for aria-label).
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 AM Steve Green <
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes
>>> people use as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't
>>> recall any participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously some
>>> people do, but I have yet to encounter one.
>>>
>>> Steve Green
>>> Managing Director
>>> Test Partners Ltd
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
>>> Of Jonathan Avila
>>> Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>>
>>>> . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose
>>>> of
>>> being the label for the landmark.
>>>
>>> I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by
>>> heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to benefit
>>> people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on whether
>>> this is
>> good or bad
>>> -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is that
>>> many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at
>>> the WebAIM screen reader user survey.
>>>
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>> Jonathan Avila
>>> Chief Accessibility Officer
>>> Level Access
>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> 703.637.8957 office
>>>
>>> Visit us online:
>>> Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
>>>
>>> Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free
>> webinars!
>>>
>>> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
>>> privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of
>>> the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message
>>> is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
>>> dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
>>> strictly
>> prohibited.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>> Behalf Of glen walker
>>> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>>
>>> Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is
>>> bad on farmers.gov?
>>>
>>> I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They
>>> have a <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't
>>> recommended but is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They
>>> also use the word "navigation" in their labels for their <nav>
>>> elements so you'll hear the word "navigation" twice, once for the
>>> label and once because it's the type of landmark.
>>>
>>> I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a
>>> problem with using a label on a <nav>.
>>>
>>> Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before
>>> and used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only
>>> because it was natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark.
>>> I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
>>> being the label for the landmark. I don't see the purpose of that.
>>> Just use an aria-label instead. If the heading isn't really the
>>> label for a section (and I use the word "section" generically, not
>>> as a landmark element), then you shouldn't have a heading. It would
>>> add confusion to
>> the page outline.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City,
>>> MO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
>>>> problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> >>> >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >>> >>> >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >>> >>> >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Rob Fentress*
>> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
>> Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard) <
>> http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person54847>
>> LinkedIn Profile
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
>> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>
>
> --
> *Rob Fentress*
> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
> Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard) <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person54847>
> LinkedIn Profile
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
> > > > > > >

From: Jim Homme
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2018 11:36AM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi,
I feel that skip links should be visible when someone tabs onto them, but do not necessarily have to be visible when focus is somewhere else. It's probably more friendly to the user to know they are there when focus is somewhere else. I feel that it is OK to compromise and let them be invisible. The important thing is that they are preferable first in the HTML order.

Another consideration for people with motor and visual disabilities is to avoid changing the natural tab order. This helps people with disabilities with a predictable focus order. I've seen instances in which pages with forms try to help the user and change tab index so that the form fields are first in the tab order, but as a developer, I would think that you can't always predict what the user will do. And it's easy to get tab order incorrect.

Thanks.

Jim



=========Jim Homme
Product Manager
Digital Accessibility
Bender Consulting Services
412-787-8567
https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
People with disabilities, access job openings at https://www.benderconsult.com/careers/job-openings


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Jonathan Cohn
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 1:02 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

J

Is there a particular pattern to avoid to improve chances of in page links accurately working for all users? Also, for those combinations of AT and browser where the in page links don’t both visually and focusable move to the referenced anchor are these just seen as as outstanding bugs by the accessibility community, or just another item to be aware of.

> On Jul 25, 2018, at 10:13 AM, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi,
> We use skip links even if a page is marked up with landmarks because they work best for people with motor disabilities. Personally, I usually try to hit the number 1 when a page loads. I'm a screen reader user. I never hit the skip link if there is one, because that causes so much chatter that it takes too long to figure out where I am once the verbalization settles down. That, and sometimes skip links don't work even though they are there.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> =========> Jim Homme
> Product Manager
> Digital Accessibility
> Bender Consulting Services
> 412-787-8567
> https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
> People with disabilities, access job openings at https://www.benderconsult.com/careers/job-openings
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Robert Fentress
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 3:02 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>
> Thanks, Steve. That's some very useful info.
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 1:40 PM Steve Green
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them
>> expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really
>> don't care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I
>> have observed over 14 years of user testing include:
>>
>> 1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are
>> provided and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because
>> the screen reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they
>> just stop it and start navigating from wherever it stopped.
>>
>> 2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly
>> to an <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the
>> <h1>. This is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier
>> to find the H key than the 1 key.
>>
>> 3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far
>> more important than perfect nesting of headings.
>>
>> 4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception
>> of "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't
>> know what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise.
>> That's not to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are
>> not understood well enough to be useful.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
>> Of Robert Fentress
>> Sent: 23 July 2018 18:23
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>
>> Also, assuming the `<nav>`s and search regions are before the
>> `<main>`, do you usually use `<h2>` for those? I think the `<h1>`
>> should be reserved for the first thing in `<main>`, so screen reader
>> users can use key commands to skip to the main content. It seems bad
>> to me to have the document outline set up like that, but I guess
>> certain page layouts necessitate it if you are using aria-labelledby
>> (another reason for aria-label).
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 AM Steve Green <
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes
>>> people use as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't
>>> recall any participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously some
>>> people do, but I have yet to encounter one.
>>>
>>> Steve Green
>>> Managing Director
>>> Test Partners Ltd
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
>>> Of Jonathan Avila
>>> Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>>
>>>> . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose
>>>> of
>>> being the label for the landmark.
>>>
>>> I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by
>>> heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to benefit
>>> people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on whether
>>> this is
>> good or bad
>>> -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is that
>>> many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at
>>> the WebAIM screen reader user survey.
>>>
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>> Jonathan Avila
>>> Chief Accessibility Officer
>>> Level Access
>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> 703.637.8957 office
>>>
>>> Visit us online:
>>> Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
>>>
>>> Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free
>> webinars!
>>>
>>> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
>>> privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of
>>> the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message
>>> is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
>>> dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
>>> strictly
>> prohibited.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>> Behalf Of glen walker
>>> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>>
>>> Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is
>>> bad on farmers.gov?
>>>
>>> I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They
>>> have a <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't
>>> recommended but is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They
>>> also use the word "navigation" in their labels for their <nav>
>>> elements so you'll hear the word "navigation" twice, once for the
>>> label and once because it's the type of landmark.
>>>
>>> I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a
>>> problem with using a label on a <nav>.
>>>
>>> Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before
>>> and used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only
>>> because it was natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark.
>>> I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
>>> being the label for the landmark. I don't see the purpose of that.
>>> Just use an aria-label instead. If the heading isn't really the
>>> label for a section (and I use the word "section" generically, not
>>> as a landmark element), then you shouldn't have a heading. It would
>>> add confusion to
>> the page outline.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City,
>>> MO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
>>>> problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> >>> >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >>> >>> >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >>> >>> >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Rob Fentress*
>> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
>> Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard) <
>> http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person54847>
>> LinkedIn Profile
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
>> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>
>
> --
> *Rob Fentress*
> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
> Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person54847>
> LinkedIn Profile
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing
> <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>

From: glen walker
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2018 11:54AM
Subject: Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
← Previous message | No next message

Good stuff, Jim.

Jonathan, you sort of answered your own question when you pointed out the
focus moving with skip links. You definitely want the focus to move to the
skip link destination. Whether that new focus results in a visual outline
or some other visual clue is more of a nicety *if* the focus is going to a
non-interactive element (such as a heading). If the focus moves to an
interactive object, then obviously a visible focus is necessary (2.4.7).
WebAIM chose to highlight the area that receives the skip link focus, which
I personally like and is a nice touch, but is not a conformance
requirement. However, if the skip link code just scrolls the page and
doesn't really move the focus, then my next TAB key will move the focus to
whatever interactive object was after the skip link. That's confusing and
I feel is a violation of 2.1.1 or possibly 2.4.3.

Also keep in mind that Internet Explorer will not move the focus to a
non-interactive element unless that element has tabindex="-1". I think
that's still the case and is documented on the microsoft site somewhere but
I don't have a reference to it offhand.

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

>
> I feel that skip links should be visible when someone tabs onto them, but
> do not necessarily have to be visible when focus is somewhere else. It's
> probably more friendly to the user to know they are there when focus is
> somewhere else. I feel that it is OK to compromise and let them be
> invisible. The important thing is that they are preferable first in the
> HTML order.
>
> Another consideration for people with motor and visual disabilities is to
> avoid changing the natural tab order. This helps people with disabilities
> with a predictable focus order. I've seen instances in which pages with
> forms try to help the user and change tab index so that the form fields are
> first in the tab order, but as a developer, I would think that you can't
> always predict what the user will do. And it's easy to get tab order
> incorrect.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Jonathan Cohn
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 1:02 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>
> Is there a particular pattern to avoid to improve chances of in page links
> accurately working for all users? Also, for those combinations of AT and
> browser where the in page links don’t both visually and focusable move to
> the referenced anchor are these just seen as as outstanding bugs by the
> accessibility community, or just another item to be aware of.
>
>