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Re: Screen reader and greyed-out submit button

for

From: Graham Armfield
Date: Jan 15, 2020 9:47AM

I agree Birkir, having the browser do the work properly would benefit many.
Do you think that's going to happen soon?

I would be interested in a codepen example of hooking into the browser
validation tree. I'm interested in how it would be possible to feed the
browser sufficient info to create meaningful error messages.

Thanks for the discussion.

Regards
Graham Armfield

coolfields.co.uk <http://www.coolfields.co.uk/>;
M:07905 590026
T: 01483 856613
@coolfields <https://twitter.com/coolfields>


On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 16:18, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
<EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Graham
> Good points, but the path forward is to pressure for more accessile
> browser valdation, the vendors can create more accessible browser
> validation messages.
> Having to use Javascript to create accessible error messages is
> non-trivial and if we can shift a larger portion of that work to the
> browsers with viable accesibility we can hugely reduce the difficulty
> of developing accessible forms.
> What we do currently is to access the browser validation tree and use
> Javascript to make sure error messages are persistent and properly
> associated with the invalid inputs. I can create a code pen example to
> demonstrate
> I like progressive enhancement but I also see the opportunity to push
> towards making form validation easier and less reliant on Javascript,
> it would be a big win for accessibility.
>
> On 1/15/20, Graham Armfield < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > Thanks for your comments Birkir.
> >
> > I would however caution against relying on the inbuilt browser validation
> > for input type="email", input type="number" etc. A recent survey pointed
> > out that the resultant error messages are not always read out by screen
> > readers. Also if you have multiple numeric or email fields in a form,
> it's
> > not clear to screen reader users which of the fields generated the error
> > message.
> >
> > In my view it's best to deactivate the browser validation and rely on
> > purpose built validation and informative error messages - whether
> generated
> > by JavaScript or by return from a server submit.
> >
> > Regards
> > Graham Armfield
> >
> > coolfields.co.uk <http://www.coolfields.co.uk/>;
> > M:07905 590026
> > T: 01483 856613
> > @coolfields <https://twitter.com/coolfields>
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 13:50, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
> > <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >
> >> Lots of good points in that email!
> >> Here are a few more thoughts.
> >> The native HTML way to mark form controls as unavailable is the
> >> disabled attribute
> >> <button disabled>submit</button>
> >> (should be "differently able" to be more PC)
> >> This attribute removes the control from te focus order and disables
> >> the click event on it.
> >> I believe this is consisent across browsers.
> >> If you want to keep the element focusable but dsabled you have to do
> >> that with a Javascript (event.preventDefault()) and then you can
> >> aria-disabled="true" on the element to mark it as disabled for a
> >> screen reader.
> >> YOu haveYou hav to use this approach for links (including links turned
> >> into buttons with styling and ARIA) because the disabled attribute is
> >> not valid on links.
> >>
> >> IN TML5 you can do a lot of browser validation without Javascript, by
> >> using the appropriate input type attributes (e.g. type="email" on an
> >> input causes browser validtion errors if you have no @ symbol, or
> >> multiple ones).
> >> If you are good at regular expressions you can use the pattern
> >> attribute to force all sorts of input validation.
> >> These are not Javascript dependent and if the browser does not support
> >> HTML5 they wll basically just be regular text inputs.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 1/15/20, Graham Armfield < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >> > Hi Barry,
> >> >
> >> > Having a submit button only become active when all fields pass the
> form
> >> > validation seems to be a popular pattern within some organisations.
> But
> >> > it's also considered a bit of an anti-pattern by some within the UX
> >> > (user
> >> > experience) and accessibility communities.
> >> >
> >> > I can think of a couple of reasons why this is not a good idea.
> >> >
> >> > Firstly, the submit button on/off functionality relies on JavaScript
> >> > routines running in the browser to perform the validation before
> >> > enabling
> >> > the submit button. Some people may be browsing in setups where
> >> > JavaScript
> >> > has been blocked, or where the JavaScript files don't load and these
> >> users
> >> > may never be able to submit the form since the validation routines
> >> > don't
> >> > run.
> >> >
> >> > Secondly, I'm told that if field prompts are not sufficiently
> >> informative,
> >> > or don't contain format guidance, some people favour submitting a form
> >> > early and using the resultant error messages to help understand the
> >> > information that is required. If the submit button is not activated
> >> > until
> >> > validation is satisfied, this is not possible.
> >> >
> >> > There are also some other ideas in this article:
> >> > https://axesslab.com/disabled-buttons-suck/
> >> >
> >> > Regards
> >> > Graham Armfield
> >> >
> >> > coolfields.co.uk <http://www.coolfields.co.uk/>;
> >> > M:07905 590026
> >> > T: 01483 856613
> >> > @coolfields <https://twitter.com/coolfields>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 06:57, Barry Hill < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hi all
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> When a web form has a submit button that is greyed-out when the form
> >> >> is
> >> >> incomplete, how should it be handled with screen readers? Or should
> >> >> the
> >> >> user be able to submit the form and get the alert that the form is
> >> >> incomplete?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks in anticipation.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Barry
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >>
> > > > > > > > > >
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > > >