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Re: Telerik .NET Reporting - Accessible PDF Output - How Control Tagging? Links to Resources?

for

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Apr 8, 2020 3:46PM

Sigh…

This would also be interesting to see, if an example may be shared. Contact details for the developers would also be welcome.

Duff.

> On Apr 8, 2020, at 17:22, Dona Patrick < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> Not the same source, but I was sent a PDF to test for compliance that was
> created "on the fly" and it passed PAC 3's test, yet it wasn't tagged at
> all. Apparently the software creating it was able to add all appropriate
> document properties and the PDF/UA metadata, then the content was basically
> scanned.
>
> The folks I talked to are open to suggestions. I sent them what they needed
> as far as tags, but I am not a software developer.
>
> Dona
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 3:11 PM Philip Kiff < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
>> Ha, yes, I was thinking along the same lines, Duff!
>>
>> But it is perhaps a bit unfair to Telerik and certainly too early yet to
>> draw such a conclusion. Our team is still learning to use the reporting
>> tool, and it is definitely possible that our current PDF issues are
>> simply the result of what one might call "user error"(!).
>>
>> And unfortunately, due to security and privacy policies, neither the
>> data nor anything related to the project are shareable, even off-list,
>> at this time.
>>
>> But if I am able, I will try to remember to post back to the list in the
>> coming month or two with at least some general conclusions about the
>> software, based on whatever we learn.
>>
>> Phil.
>>
>> On 2020-04-08 14:53, Duff Johnson wrote:
>>> Philip,
>>>
>>> So… that's very sad to read. Because I can only think of one (1)
>> explanation for software that
>>> creates tagged PDF, and
>>> claims conformance with PDF/UA, but
>>> ONLY emits <P> elements.
>>> That singular explanation is decidedly unflattering.
>>>
>>> If possible, please send me an example such file offline so I can see
>> this for myself. If you can share a point of contact I'd appreciate it.
>>>
>>> Duff Johnson
>>>
>>> PDF Association, CEO
>>> PDF Association, Inc. Executive Director
>>> ISO 32000 & ISO 14289, Project Leader
>>>
>>> p +1.617 283 4226
>>> e <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> w http://www.pdfa.org
>>> l http://www.linkedin.com/in/duffjohnson/
>>>
>>> PDF Association · Association for Digital Document Standards e.V.
>>> Landgrafenstr. 14 · 10787 Berlin · Germany
>>> Tel +49 30 4439 0310 Fax: +49 30 3940 5099
>>> District Court: Berlin-Charlottenburg VR 26099 B
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Apr 8, 2020, at 14:32, Philip Kiff < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> To be honest, I was actually quite surprised to discover that the
>> Telerik report PDF that we produced passed the PAC tool PDF/UA test
>> cleanly. The Telerik developers must have spent considerable time ensuring
>> that it would meet all the required technical elements. But there are
>> things that the PAC tool can't test, and that's where the file failed.
>>>>
>>>> The most egregious issue was that all content was simply tagged as P.
>> And when I say "all content" I really mean everything. Headings, list
>> items, labels, tables, table data cells ,table heading cells, footers.
>> Everything.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I've seen plenty of files that are just a string of P tags. And
>> depending on the content, and despite the poor tagging, not only can those
>> files sometimes pass accessibility checkers, they may even be acceptable or
>> reasonably usable by most assistive technology users. For example, lots of
>> short memos or letters really are nothing more than a series of
>> undifferentiated paragraphs anyways.
>>>>
>>>> In this case, however, the purpose of these reports is to present
>> tabular data, so spitting out a linearized series of table cells as P's is
>> a clear fail. And then on top of that, the software applied inaccurate
>> "Alternative text" and "Actual text" attributes to each and every P, that
>> had the effect of replacing all the (albeit poorly) structured content with
>> a single inline stream of text with no separation between elements and with
>> the intended text content replaced by seriously incorrect "Actual text"
>> entries.
>>>>
>>>> It was really suprising to see! Normally, you would have to work very
>> hard to create a PDF that was so unusable and yet appeared via automated
>> testing to be perfect. But that machine software can do it in a jiffy!
>>>>
>>>> Criticism aside, though, what I honestly am hoping is that the Telerik
>> software has some sort of undocumented mapping configuration system that
>> our development team is missing. If we could map individual elements in the
>> report to correct tags, then possibly that terrible faux-tagged PDF could
>> miraculously transform into a truly beautiful PDF/UA with just a handful of
>> tweaks. We haven't been able to get details directly from folks at Telerik
>> yet.
>>>>
>>>> Phil.
>>>>
>>>> On 2020-04-08 14:00, Duff Johnson wrote:
>>>>>> But some colleagues are having difficulty matching that promise to
>> reality(!). I couldn't find much documentation on how to control the
>> tagging of the PDF output. Our initial attempts produced files that were
>> woefully inaccessible, though, surprisingly, they still managed to pass the
>> PAC (PDF Accessibility Checker) tool tests cleanly with zero errors.
>>>>> When you say "woefully inaccessible" could you say more? What, in
>> particular, was inaccessible?
>>>>>
>>>>> PAC does the "machine" checks… but validation of tagging semantics is
>> up to the person running the software…
>>>>>
>>>>> Duff.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > >