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Re: Dot Leaders Should Be Seen, but Not heard

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From: JP Jamous
Date: Apr 12, 2021 12:37PM

In addition to Glen's great feedback, it is important to understand that every screen reader handles non-alphanumeric characters differently. For example, JAWS by default announces the first 3 characters and omits the rest. So you only hear, "---" when the screen shows "--------------------".

While you cannot control how screen readers announce your content, Glen is correct about hiding that from screen reader users. Some users or developers do not like that, but it is a double-edged sword. You have to pick either this or that.

Personally, I do not care for those visual contents as long as I am reading web pages. If I am doing Word editing, I change my screen reader settings to ensure the visual presentation is being conveyed properly. So if you are concerned about how it would be announced, I'd suggest to silence it or hide it. Your users who are browsing just want the content that allows them to make a decision.





=================================================Jean-Pierre Jamous
Principal Digital Accessibility Engineer
Jepelsy LLC

W: (952) 666-2930
M: (952) 666-2930
<EMAIL REMOVED>

"The only limitations in life are those we set for ourselves"
=================================================

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of glen walker
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 11:31 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Dot Leaders Should Be Seen, but Not heard

1. For dot leaders, you're looking for a pure CSS solution, not html? In html, you can wrap your leaders inside an aria-hidden="true" container.

2. For punctuation, check your NVDA settings. Under "Speech" there's a punctuation setting that is "Some" by default. If you change it to "Most"
or "All", you'll hear the square brackets announced. When set on "Some", I didn't hear the brackets but I *did* hear the negative sign on the number.

Interesting that with "[-1,548]", when set to "some" I heard "minus one thousand five hundred forty eight". When set to "most" I heard "left bracket minus one thousand five hundred forty eight right bracket". When set to "all" I heard "left bracket minus one comma five forty eight right bracket". So with "all", it's truly reading all punctuation, including the comma in the number, which breaks up how the number is read.


On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 8:46 AM Mark Harcourt < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
wrote:

> I am working on a project to assess the web accessibility of
> responsive
> HTML5 documents. While testing speech-to-text rendition of text in
> tables using the open source NVDA (NonVisual Desktop Access) assistive
> technology agent, I discovered two issues that I hope someone here may
> help me to understand and then recommend strategies to mitigate or overcome.
>
> 1. Though I do not agree with the sentiment expressed by the English
> 15th century proverb that says, "Children should be seen, but not
> heard," I do agree with the sentiment "Dot leaders should be visible,
> but not auricular." Browsers appear to render as invisible certain
> punctuation text when it is styled using CSS speaking properties
> (meaning speak: and speak-as:). This may be how browsers prevent
> speech-to-text assistive technology agents (such as NVDA) from
> rendering aurally punctuation text such as dot leaders (as "dot dot
> dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot ..." until one
> goes insane). Is there some way to style dot leaders so that they can be "seen but not heard?"
> The CSS code applied in this case is as follows:
> .dot-leader span:after {
> display: inline-flex;
> float: left;
> width: 0em;
> baseline-shift: 0;
> white-space: nowrap;
> content:
> "000a0000a0000a0000a0. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "
> ". . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "
> ". . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "
> ". . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "
> /* Seeking here to prevent text-to-speech agents from rendering dot
> leaders aurally.
> Note: Using only one rather than both seemingly produces identical
> results. */
> speak-as: no-punctuation;
> speak: none;
> /* Seeking here to force leaders to remain visible because both speak: and
> speak-as: seem to cause browsers to render them invisible. */
> visibility: visible;
> }
>
> single <td> styled using this CSS follows:
> <td class="dot-leader"
>
> style="padding-left:4pt;padding-right:4pt;border-right:0pt solid
> black;text-align:left;"
> ><span>UTILITY F/W AIRCRAFT</span></td>
>
> 2. NVDA does not render aurally certain significant non-terminal
> punctuation text when that punctuation is not styled using CSS
> speaking properties. Negative numbers are often indicated in financial
> tables using enclosing square brackets and the negative number sign, as, e.g., [-1,548].
> No special CSS speaking properties are assigned to the styling of such
> text. The characters are clearly visible; yet NVDA fails to read aloud
> the enclosing square brackets and the negative number sign. Why?
>
> Thank you in advance for any assistance you provide.
>
> Mark Harcourt
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >