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Re: Best Possible Audio Description

for

From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Jul 28, 2021 9:08AM

One thing I noticed in the question was the term "proper audio description". There is a lot of "proper audio description" being provided using the suggestions and feedback provided. With "how to" videos, it is even possible to avoid all need of audio description if the script for the "how to" video is done in a certain way (like Shawn suggested.)

You seem to feel your content may be different or you have a desire to try to do more. If you want to go that path, I say go for it! If you have the desire, time, and resources to do that to try to create an optimal user experience, then try it out and see where it leads. Just know that it is not a necessary step that is needed for most video.

If it is possible to share your results, share them. Everything we try is worthwhile since it serves to help us develop our knowledge and experience with potential new accessibility solutions.

Thanks!
Tim Harshbarger
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 8:27 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Best Possible Audio Description

As a blind person myself I typically only use videos because I'm looking for something and it's typically on YouTube. I know YouTube sometimes has video, sometimes only audio, but I'm not really paying attention to it.
I often follow along with videos with friends (or with colleagues when it's work related) and in those situations it would be best to have togglable audio description, especially when it can be fit into the pauses between natural dialog and do not need a separate "extended"
version of the video.
For those situations I prefer a text transcript that captures the dialog and a transcript of the information that is presented between scenes in the dialog.
WCAG does allow for a conforming alternative solution, if it can be accessed from the same page and contains all the same information as the inaccessible version.
The examples given are primarily webpages, but same logic can be applied to videos.
A few things to consider:
1. What video players are you planning to use (and does that player have the ability to toggle a separate audio description track). This was unusual a couple of years ago but support for this is being added to some of the mainstream video platforms.
2. Can you still update the video script to maximize the information that is communicated through the spoken word/audio (as opposed to on-screen text and other infomration), keep in mind that you don't have to describe everything, only communicate the visuals that provide actual info to supplement the infomration in the audio (you don't have to describe a random screenshot or a person who happens to be visible in the background if they're not part of the plot or information).
3. If not, can you fit in audio description without stretching out the video track?

If no to all of the above you can either
* Create a separate video with audio description added as well as the necessary additional pauses (the audio description does not have to be togglable since it is part of another version of the video).
* Do the same, but usse audio only version, not a video version (it's a smaller footprint, easier to use without streaming extra data so it could be useful for those who want to consume the videos as podcasts.
* Create an extended text transcript that incldues spoken word transcript and all the visual clues (including identifying speakers if more than one), post that transcript along with the video.

I really like that you're trying to go such extra length to provide equivalent experience for all!

And, yes, though it's not what you asked and I'm sure you're already aware of it, add captions for those who can't hear the audio (either because they have a hearing impairment or they are watching at work and can't keep the sound turned on).




On 7/27/21, L Snider < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> That is possible with HTML 5 players like AblePlayer, where you can
> turn on and off audio description, sign language, etc. So it depends
> on how you made the video/audio track.
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 4:36 PM Andrews, David B (DEED)
> < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>
>> In an ideal world, you would be able to turn on and off audio
>> description just like any other service in the player, such as captioning.
>>
>> You need to be able to get to, and use all the controls from the keyboard.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf
>> Of Peter Shikli
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 2:00 PM
>> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Best Possible Audio Description
>>
>> This message may be from an external email source.
>> Do not select links or open attachments unless verified. Report all
>> suspicious emails to Minnesota IT Services Security Operations Center.
>>
>> >>
>> Tim's comment about the blind preferring to use video players puts an
>> unexpected hole in our plans to deliver the best possible audio
>> description. This then becomes a call to the blind, not just the
>> legally blind who are visually impaired, to let me know what the
>> blind can gain from a video player when they are consuming the video
>> content by themselves -- as compared to a proper audio description as
>> a separate mp3 file.
>>
>> I hope no one is offended by the question, but I need this
>> understanding to better serve the needs of the totally blind.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Peter Shikli
>> Access2online Inc.
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>> From: "Tim Harshbarger" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> Sent: 7/27/21 7:34 AM
>> To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >,
>> "'Peter Shikli'" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Best Possible Audio Description
>>
>> I feel like I should maybe try to clear up a possible misconception.
>>
>> Based on my personal experience, people who are blind use video
>> players all the time. I frequently (almost on a daily basis) receive
>> YouTube links from people who are blind. Additionally, I myself am
>> totally blind (with no vision or light perception) and "watch" videos
>> every day. It is rare that I watch a video with someone who is
>> sighted. In fact, the only video I watch right now with anyone
>> sighted is "Ted Lasso" with my brother on Fridays since we both are
>> fans and it makes a great way to end a work week.
>>
>> By the way, no offense is taken about anything previously written. I
>> just want to clarify any potential misconception that people who are
>> blind might not be frequent consumers of video content as well.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Tim
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf
>> Of Shawn Henry
>> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2021 11:34 PM
>> To: Peter Shikli < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> Cc: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Best Possible Audio Description
>>
>> Jonathan, Thanks for sharing that perspective.
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> Some input:
>>
>> * For a "description of a how-to video":
>> 1. ideally the how-to video has integrated description
>> (https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww
>> w.w3.org%2FWAI%2Fmedia%2Fav%2Fav-content%2F%23integrate-description&a
>> mp;data%7C01%7Cdavid.b.andrews%40state.mn.us%7C55a62c4926664cdccce
>> 408d951322dd8%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b89c2159828c%7C0%7C0%7C6376300989
>> 83908773%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIi
>> LCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=fYgQqGvxI5sZuTGiHGWDy
>> yqk2bMqv0MVBxYpy%2Fd7uuE%3D&amp;reserved=0)
>> 2. some people would much prefer a descriptive transcript (that
>> includes audio and visual information in text) so they can consume it
>> at their own pace
>>
>> * WCAG allows separate versions; that is, you can have a described
>> version and a non-described version of the video.
>>
>> * You could additionally provide an audio-only alternative as you
>> describe. (Though probably wise to confirm that your users really
>> would find it useful, before doing it.)
>>
>> Hope that helps,
>> ~Shawn
>>
>> On 26-Jul-21 8:16 PM, Jonathan Avila wrote:
>> > Many legally blind people rely on audio description but also follow
>> > along and enjoy as much as possible with the visuals of video. Also
>> > people with disabilities watch videos together with other people
>> > and may want audio description with the visuals so sighted,
>> > non-sighted, and deaf/hard of hearing can all enjoy. Some folks are
>> > also visually impaired and hard of hearing and need both audio
>> > description and captions.
>> >
>> > Jonathan
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf
>> > Of Peter Shikli
>> > Sent: Monday, July 26, 2021 8:46 PM
>> > To: WebAIM Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> > Subject: [WebAIM] Best Possible Audio Description
>> >
>> > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
>> > not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender
>> > and know the content is safe.
>> >
>> >
>> > July 23rd's thread about creating accessible technical how-to video
>> > content inspired some conversations in our shop about the best
>> > possible audio descriptions, which I will present for community feedback below.
>> > More importantly, the best possible audio description seems to
>> > conflict with WCAG's requirements, and that is where we would truly
>> > appreciate some guidance.
>> >
>> > Let's begin by recognizing that we are not referring to closed captions.
>> > Those are for the deaf whereas audio description are mainly for the
>> > blind, and their interests should remain our focus here.
>> >
>> > Our disagreement with WCAG begins with the requirement that an
>> > audio description be a feature of the video player as per their
>> > glossary's definition of an audio description being "synchronized"
>> > to the video (with that never mentioned in the numbered success
>> > criteria). For obvious reasons, the blind use video players about
>> > as much as they use mice. Audio in the form of a compact mp3 on
>> > their smartphones would serve their needs better than forcing them
>> > to put the megafile of a video somewhere just to listen to its audio description track.
>> >
>> > The audio track of the video is all they need, plus the scene
>> > descriptions between the dialog. That latter isn't a trivial
>> > requirement in practice. Consider scripting the scene description
>> > of a how-to video, which can be the key information of the video.
>> > If you thought an alt description of an image was tough, how about
>> > a scene packed with information, emotion, nuances, special effects,
>> > text images, and all the creativity of a Spielberg.
>> >
>> > Then comes the WCAG requirement causing us the most pain, the need
>> > to pack all that into the time slot between dialog for level AA.
>> > Putting a pause in the video while the audio description rolls
>> > complies at a AAA level but builds needless resentment among the
>> > sighted unless we're back to allowing a link to a version best for the disabled.
>> >
>> > Following is how we propose to make accessible the how-to videos
>> > sitting in my in-basket. First we extract the dialog plus music &
>> > sounds into a separate mp3. We then carefully script the meaningful
>> > scene descriptions. Then we have a trained voiceover artist read
>> > that scene script into the space between dialog, but expanding that
>> > audio whenever needed.
>> >
>> > Such a best-possible audio description would retain the original
>> > dialog for its artistic value. How much better than replacing
>> > Morgan Freeman's voice with an NVDA robot! And no NVDA robot for
>> > the scene description either. More of a Mark Twain story telling to keep the listener awake.
>> > Much more satisfying and informative than a transcript for a screen
>> > reader.
>> >
>> > The end result would be a link near the video to a separate mp3
>> > audio description that even busy sighted listeners may appreciate
>> > on their commute to work as a more accurate rendition of the video.
>> > My question is how to make this compliant to Title II and III of
>> > the ADA which requires WCAG 2.1 level AA?
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Peter Shikli
>> > Access2online Inc.
>> > 29030 SW Town Center Loop East
>> > Suite 202-187
>> > Wilsonville, OR 97070
>> > 503-570-6831 - <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> > Cell: 949-677-3705
>> > FAX: 503-582-8337
>> > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fww
>> > w.a
>> > ccess2online.com%2F&amp;data%7C01%7Cdavid.b.andrews%40state.mn.u
>> > s%7
>> > C55a62c4926664cdccce408d951322dd8%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b89c2159828
>> > c%7
>> > C0%7C0%7C637630098983908773%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjA
>> > wMD
>> > AiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=F
>> > %2B
>> > lfFKQgackk8C42Z8QkZsf4Gl6qgGlUhX3ZABM5KFo%3D&amp;reserved=0
>> > Prison inmates helping the internet become accessible
>> >
>> >
>> > >> > >> > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.
>> > webaim.org%2F&amp;data%7C01%7Cdavid.b.andrews%40state.mn.us%7C55
>> > a62
>> > c4926664cdccce408d951322dd8%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b89c2159828c%7C0%
>> > 7C0
>> > %7C637630098983908773%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiL
>> > CJQ
>> > IjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdataìSdNv%
>> > 2F4
>> > wgPtmodG7RpMScyuDTjaxgo5U%2BMq1%2FWReuU%3D&amp;reserved=0 List
>> > archives at
>> > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwe
>> > bai
>> > m.org%2Fdiscussion%2Farchives&amp;data%7C01%7Cdavid.b.andrews%40
>> > sta
>> > te.mn.us%7C55a62c4926664cdccce408d951322dd8%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b
>> > 89c
>> > 2159828c%7C0%7C0%7C637630098983908773%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWI
>> > joi
>> > MC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&a
>> > mp;
>> > sdata=FOVZVWdULxk6Ua5JnSHnti3le9A2ABkgDUpdjRO4rAY%3D&amp;reserved=0
>> > >> > >> > >> > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.
>> > webaim.org%2F&amp;data%7C01%7Cdavid.b.andrews%40state.mn.us%7C55
>> > a62
>> > c4926664cdccce408d951322dd8%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b89c2159828c%7C0%
>> > 7C0
>> > %7C637630098983908773%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiL
>> > CJQ
>> > IjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdataìSdNv%
>> > 2F4
>> > wgPtmodG7RpMScyuDTjaxgo5U%2BMq1%2FWReuU%3D&amp;reserved=0 List
>> > archives at
>> > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwe
>> > bai
>> > m.org%2Fdiscussion%2Farchives&amp;data%7C01%7Cdavid.b.andrews%40
>> > sta
>> > te.mn.us%7C55a62c4926664cdccce408d951322dd8%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b
>> > 89c
>> > 2159828c%7C0%7C0%7C637630098983908773%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWI
>> > joi
>> > MC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&a
>> > mp;
>> > sdata=FOVZVWdULxk6Ua5JnSHnti3le9A2ABkgDUpdjRO4rAY%3D&amp;reserved=0
>> > >> >
>> >> >> https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist
>> .webaim.org%2F&amp;data%7C01%7Cdavid.b.andrews%40state.mn.us%7C55a
>> 62c4926664cdccce408d951322dd8%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b89c2159828c%7C0%
>> 7C0%7C637630098983908773%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi
>> LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdataìSdN
>> v%2F4wgPtmodG7RpMScyuDTjaxgo5U%2BMq1%2FWReuU%3D&amp;reserved=0
>> List archives at
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>> tate.mn.us%7C55a62c4926664cdccce408d951322dd8%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b
>> 89c2159828c%7C0%7C0%7C637630098983908773%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJW
>> IjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000
>> &amp;sdata=FOVZVWdULxk6Ua5JnSHnti3le9A2ABkgDUpdjRO4rAY%3D&amp;reserve
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>> .webaim.org%2F&amp;data%7C01%7Cdavid.b.andrews%40state.mn.us%7C55a
>> 62c4926664cdccce408d951322dd8%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b89c2159828c%7C0%
>> 7C0%7C637630098983918730%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi
>> LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=WQu90
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>> List archives at
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>> tate.mn.us%7C55a62c4926664cdccce408d951322dd8%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b
>> 89c2159828c%7C0%7C0%7C637630098983918730%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJW
>> IjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000
>> &amp;sdata|MYbbvmV21EqLOcr5B7doSgGx0V5sRAQTUQh0dB7YY%3D&amp;reserve
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>> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


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