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From: Christine Hogenkamp
Date: Aug 5, 2025 7:53AM

Hi Steve,

I agree with what you've said, for me as a web developer who deals in using
HTML for creating custom emails, I can only think of what I will refer to
as "the Outlook problem" - basically some programs, especially older ones,
do not follow the most recent versions of HTML or even convert standard
HTML to their own version of HTML which can cause all kinds of weird
behavior. In Outlook's case, it turns div tags into paragraph tags, which
can wreak havoc with an email's formatting if you use div tags for
creating a layout for an email, instead of using a table. You may exclaim
"But tables are an outdated way to create containers and layout, compared
to divs, which are much more flexible and adjustable, etc!" and that's
true, but the reality is that if you want an email to have a certain layout
look for Outlook, you gotta use a table ha ha!

It may be that some part of JAWS or NVDA hasn't been updated to be more
HTML5 compatible, or something similar. Since VoiceOver is part of the
MacOS, it makes sense that it might get updated along with the rest of the
OS when Apple is creating a new OS. Generally for these types of issues, if
you find coding the older way does work as intended for JAWS/NVDA, then you
have to decide what you want to prioritize: more "backwards compatibility"
or is the effect you want to achieve more important AND only achievable by
having a link tag around a header tag. Generally I tend to prioritize the
broadest compatibility but I understand that can be sometimes difficult to
reconcile with client requests/expectations/etc.

*x*
*Christine Hogenkamp (She, Her)*
Front-end Developer & Accessibility Lead
Context Creative – a Mod Op company
416.972.1439 | contextcreative.com


On Mon, Aug 4, 2025 at 10:08 AM Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
wrote:

> Thanks, Christine. What you are saying is true of HTML4 and XHTML 1.x, but
> HTML5 allows heading elements to be children of links. As you say, it's
> much more flexible, to the point of allowing almost any element to contain
> almost any other element.
>
> The whole rationale for dropping SC 4.1.1 was that there is now a
> specification that tells browsers how to create the DOM when elements are
> nested incorrectly, but they are not nested incorrectly in this case.
> Given that this specification exists and browsers should apply it when the
> HTML5 doctype is specified, it is all the stranger that JAWS and NVDA
> behave differently from VoiceOver.
>
> Steve
>