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Re: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 04.03.2005. (out of the office)

for

From: Kitzzy Aviles
Date: Mar 4, 2005 9:19AM

Hello,

Thank you for your email. I am currently away from the office and will
answer your email upon my return on Monday, March 7, 2005. If you need
immediate assistance, contact the main CDWS number at 407-823-3718.

Thank you,
Kitzzy Aviles

>>> webaim-forum 03/04/05 11:17 >>>

WebAIM Discussion List Digest 04.03.2005.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: no subject
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:58:57 -0700



Just a brief re-introduction. I'd been
a member previously while working as a Section 508 consultant and
developer
for the National Library of Medicine/NIH, but &quot;went into
stasis&quot;
after I changed jobs. I'm working once again with the Federal govt.,
this
time with the FAA... again acting as a 508 technical consultant and
developer.



I've always enjoyed the interplay and
exchange of ideas/techniques on the list, and look forward to rejoining
the action.



Kevin



Kevin H. Spruill AWA/CNTR/FAA

FAA Section 508 Technical Support

202.385.8059

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: IMG with a caption?
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:21:43 -0700


I having a brain freeze -- is there a way to add a caption under an
img??
Yes, it would be in addition to an ALT. Just need a quick way to add a
brief description for sighted users.

Cheers,
Glenda
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: IMG with a caption?
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:38:23 -0700

glenda wrote:

>I having a brain freeze -- is there a way to add a caption under an
img??
>Yes, it would be in addition to an ALT. Just need a quick way to add a
>brief description for sighted users.
>
>
>
There is no HTML element or attribute for that, that would make a
connection between the image and the caption. The caption element is for

tables exclusively.

One option would be to nest the image in the same paragraph, at least
then it has the same element. Setting the image display to block in
the CSS will show it above the text.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: IMG with a caption?
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:41:21 -0700

> I having a brain freeze -- is there a way to add a caption under
> an img??

As far as I know, there is no standardized way to do this. Some people
abuse
Ruby markup [1] for this purpose, but I don't encourage this proceeding.


Jens.


[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/


--
Jens Meiert
Information Architect

http://meiert.com/

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: IMG with a caption?
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:50:47 -0700

Thanks, that explains why I couldn't find any option in my reference
book.
Funny, there's ALT for blind users, but nothing simple for sighted
users.

Glenda

-----Original Message-----
From: lists38 [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 1:12 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] IMG with a caption?



glenda wrote:

>I having a brain freeze -- is there a way to add a caption under an
img??
>Yes, it would be in addition to an ALT. Just need a quick way to add a
>brief description for sighted users.
>
>
>
There is no HTML element or attribute for that, that would make a
connection between the image and the caption. The caption element is for
tables exclusively.

One option would be to nest the image in the same paragraph, at least
then it has the same element. Setting the image display to block in
the CSS will show it above the text.

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

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------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: IMG with a caption?
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:54:46 -0700

I like to use a for this with the image in the dt and the caption
in
the dd.

I got the idea from:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/index.cfm
YMMV (Your mileage my vary)

Joelle

-----Original Message-----
From: glenda [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:29 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] IMG with a caption?



I having a brain freeze -- is there a way to add a caption under an
img??
Yes, it would be in addition to an ALT. Just need a quick way to add a
brief description for sighted users.

Cheers,
Glenda
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.0 - Release Date: 3/2/05

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: IMG with a caption?
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:00:42 -0700

glenda wrote:

>Thanks, that explains why I couldn't find any option in my reference
book.
>Funny, there's ALT for blind users, but nothing simple for sighted
users.
>
>
The alt attribute is also there for user agents without images. Not only

blind people. It also applies when the image can't be loaded or found.
Ah, the good old days with Netscape 3 and a 28.8 modem...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: IMG with a caption?
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:04:08 -0700

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, lists38 wrote:

> There is no HTML element or attribute for that, that would make a
> connection between the image and the caption.

That's what he have to live with, unfortunately. But there are many
possible workarounds, see
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www/captions.html

> The caption element is for tables exclusively.

That's correct, but a single-cell table is one of the workarounds,
and it has the nice feature that you can put the caption text before the
image (hence before the alt text, in non-visual rendering) but visually
position it below the image (the common presentation for image
captions),
using . It might be better to read the caption
text before the alt text, since the caption is by its nature often more
explanatory. Especially for content images, we often need to restort to
alt texts that aren't real alternatives but just short descriptions or
names for the image.

> One option would be to nest the image in the same paragraph, at least
> then it has the same element. Setting the image display to block in
> the CSS will show it above the text.

Yes, but authors normally want to make the text appear below the image
in
a particular way in visual rendering, and this usually means that you
need
some more elaborated markup.

--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: IMG with a caption?
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:12:05 -0700

Thanks. Yes, I am aware of all the benefits of alt. Just didn't have
time
to list them all since that wasn't my point.

-----Original Message-----
From: lists38 [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 1:35 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] IMG with a caption?



glenda wrote:

>Thanks, that explains why I couldn't find any option in my reference
book.
>Funny, there's ALT for blind users, but nothing simple for sighted
users.
>
>
The alt attribute is also there for user agents without images. Not only
blind people. It also applies when the image can't be loaded or found.
Ah, the good old days with Netscape 3 and a 28.8 modem...

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.0 - Release Date: 3/2/05

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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.0 - Release Date: 3/2/05

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: IMG with a caption?
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:22:29 -0700

Would encapsulation in a definition list, with the img in the and
the caption in the , be considered an acceptably accessible
solution? This may only make sense semantically if you have multiple
(rather, a list of) images. The list would need to be styled as well
to achieve the layout desired.

christian

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:12:20 +0000, lists38
wrote:
>
> glenda wrote:
>
> >I having a brain freeze -- is there a way to add a caption under an
img??
> >Yes, it would be in addition to an ALT. Just need a quick way to add
a
> >brief description for sighted users.
> >
> >
> >
> There is no HTML element or attribute for that, that would make a
> connection between the image and the caption. The caption element is
for
> tables exclusively.
>
> One option would be to nest the image in the same paragraph, at least
> then it has the same element. Setting the image display to block in
> the CSS will show it above the text.
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: IMG with a caption?
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:04:46 -0700

not sure if anyone has suggested this solution yet, sorry if it is a
repeat.



Caption text here


By placing everything within an the enclosing div and setting its width
the caption will be displayed below the image because its width is the
same as the div. The alt could be "" if the caption is an appropriate
description or it could be something complementary. It should not be a
duplicate. In the example above a screen reader would read the alt first

then the caption.

Mike

christian.bradford wrote:
> Would encapsulation in a definition list, with the img in the and
> the caption in the , be considered an acceptably accessible
> solution? This may only make sense semantically if you have multiple
> (rather, a list of) images. The list would need to be styled as well
> to achieve the layout desired.
>
> christian
>
> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:12:20 +0000, lists38
wrote:
>
>>glenda wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I having a brain freeze -- is there a way to add a caption under an
img??
>>>Yes, it would be in addition to an ALT. Just need a quick way to add
a
>>>brief description for sighted users.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>There is no HTML element or attribute for that, that would make a
>>connection between the image and the caption. The caption element is
for
>>tables exclusively.
>>
>>One option would be to nest the image in the same paragraph, at least
>>then it has the same element. Setting the image display to block in
>>the CSS will show it above the text.
>>
>>----
>>To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>
>>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: ZoomText vs MAGic
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:38:26 -0700





Is there a paper that compares ZoomText and MAGic screen magnifiaction
products and the implications for a user who has one product at home and
the other at work?


Regards,
Steve Roberts
Solutions Design Lead - User Experience Team
Technology
National Australia Bank Limited
Level 8 (W2.8.008), 800 Bourke St,
Melbourne, Victoria 3008
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: text links on a separate page - compliant with 508?
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:15:23 -0700

Lisa at <EMAIL REMOVED> wrote:

Javascript flyout menus are still very popular. Another way to help make
them accessible is to place all the the child links on a seperate page
when the parent is clicked on. (The original post of this thread was in
January)

----

When deciding on a navigation scheme, JavaScript or not, there are other

factors in the choice besides accessibility. About a year and a half ago

Dr. Kath Straub at Human Factors International collected and summarized
a number of research papers on site navigation design.

While these studies focus on visual design and navigation, the summaries

following seem to indicate for the most part that sequential rather than

expandable menus would be the best solution for both accessibility and
general navigation, because navigation is essentially sequential for
aural rendition of web pages, and sequential menus would appear to have
the edge for general navigation by typical users.

One problem with expandable menus which are accessible, is the number of

links presented to the impaired user can be overwhelming, making it
difficult to get to the next level of the site. One certainly expects
lots of links on a site map page, but it is usually less appropriate for

home pages on public sites that will likely have many first-time
visitors.

Dr. Straub's summaries of research on site navigation:

1. Although deeper sites tend to be more challenging for users to
navigate, there is a tradeoff between depth and breadth (number of
choices per level) in speed of finding. (Bernard, 2002)
2. Structures that have multiple levels should concentrate site
navigation information at the first level and at the level closest
to the ultimate content pages (or terminal nodes). (Bernard, 2002)
3. Providing a visible sitemap facilitates site learning and
encourages comprehensive exploration of a site. (Danielson, 2002)
4. Less than half of users take advantage of breadcrumbs (even when
most report having noticed them). (Lida, Hull and Pilcher, 2002)
5. Under click-stream analysis, breadcrumbs are not more efficient
than other approaches to navigation. (Lida, Hull and Pilcher,
2002)

6. Expandable menus are slower to navigate than sequential menus.
This is particularly true when users are deeper in a site.
(Zaphiris, Schneiderman & Norman, 2002)
7. Sequential menus helps users develop a better sense of orientation
within a site. (Zaphiris, Schneiderman & Norman, 2002)
8. Users scan group labels within indexed content. (Hornoff and
Halverson, 2003)
9. When users have expectations about where desired information will
appear on the next screen, they move their eyes there in
anticipation while the screen paints. (Hornoff and Halverson,
2003)
10. Indexed menus and vertical menus are preferred over horizontal
menus (in absolute, not statistically significant, terms).
(Bernard and Habmlin, 2002)

11. Users preference tends toward indexed menus over vertical or
horizontal menus. (Bernard and Habmlin, 2002)
12. For searching tasks, pull-down menus provide fastest performance
[presumably sighted users without coordination problems]. For
browsing tasks, combined global / local navigation provides
fastest performance. (Yu and Roth, 2002)
13. Presenting short summaries with text links helps users understand
and predict the content associated with the link. (Baker, Bernard
& Riley, 2002)
14. Users only perceive / encode (change in) elements of the display
that they are directly focused on. (Simon & Chabris, 1999)
15. Research comparing navigation efficiency through sites of varying
depths and breadths broadly converges on the findings that users
find roughly 16 (ungrouped) top-level links leading into 2-3
subsequent menus the most efficient, learnable and least error
prone. [Dr. Straub's comment on this research]

Whether or not JavaScript menus ultimately legally comply with Section
508 is just part of the conumdrum in designing effective, easy-to-use
navigation for a site.

Terence de Giere

<EMAIL REMOVED>

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: IMG with a caption?
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:58:20 -0700

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, christian.bradford wrote:

> Would encapsulation in a definition list, with the img in the and
> the caption in the , be considered an acceptably accessible
> solution?

It would be semantically absurd and it would not achieve any useful
default layout rendering, so it is clearly inferior to using, say,
just div elements.

If a speech-based browser implemened a according to its defined
semantics (ignoring any examples in the specification that contradict
that), it would be natural to read
xxxyyy
as follows: "Definition list. Term: xxx. Definition data: yyy.
End of definition list." Current browsers probably don't do that,
but would you really like to _fear_ that some browsers start
behaving by the specs?

> This may only make sense semantically if you have multiple
> (rather, a list of) images.

No, it would not make sense semantically in any case. The number
of images is not the issue; a list can have just one element, though
it's a rather pathetic list. But neither an image nor its caption
is a term being defined. Well, except in a contrived example like the
following:

a fundamental property of matter
where mass.gif is an image that consists of the word "mass"
in some appearance.

> The list would need to be styled as well to achieve the layout
desired.

The element is in practice just a visual layout trick, and a coarse
and unreliable at that. Here you wouldn't even _want_ to have the layout
people usually expect to get when they use the trick. Besides,
is more difficult to style than most elements, since its default
rendering is complicated and hard to describe, and there are quirks
in CSS implementations that make the styling even harder.

--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: IMG with a caption?
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:13:57 -0700

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, mmoore wrote:

> not sure if anyone has suggested this solution yet, sorry if it is a
repeat.
>
>
>
> Caption text here
>

It's one of the options, though you should use the correct syntax
(no "px" in HTML attribute values), and it's questionable whether
paragraph markup is best here. Semantically, a caption is seldom
really a paragraph, so would be better. Presentationally,
paragraph elements usually have default top and bottom margin,
so here the image would be separated from its caption, making
it more difficult they they belong together. Although you could
easily remove the top margin using CSS, people with disabilities
may well have disabled CSS support or overridden page style sheets
in favor of a user style sheet designed for the user's needs.
Moreover, you can do nothing practical to prevent speech browsers
from making a short pause before a paragraph if they have been designed
to work that way.

> The alt could be "" if the caption is an appropriate
> description or it could be something complementary.

But that would be rare. If an image has a caption, it is probably a
content image and the caption text just describes what the image is
about, instead of conveying its full message. So the odds are that
it would be better to have the caption read first, giving those
users who have _some_ way of accessing images (maybe the user is
just surfing with images disabled?) a basis for deciding whether to
try to access this particular image.

Unfortunately, there's no way to suppress a caption in non-visual
rendering except by making the caption part of the image (which
creates problems of its own). For example, if your page contains
some article that tells about some meeting and is illustrated
by a photo of the meeting, with a caption, then both the photo
and the caption should probably be omitted in non-visual rendering.
In that case it's probably the least of evils to use a short alt
text like "(photo of the meeting)". Without the caption, we could
use just alt="".

--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/