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From: Gary Williamson
Date: Mon, Jan 22 2007 3:20AM
Subject: vs 
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Generator Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium) I' ve heard on the grapevine that shouldn' t be used to emphasise text for screen readers as it shouts a word rather than emphasises it! If this is the case what can be used as an alternative? I' ve heard can be used instead, however, I' m not sure how?

Regards

Gary

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Jan 22 2007 3:50AM
Subject: Re: vs 
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Quoting Gary Williamson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:

> Generator Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium) I' ve heard on the
> grapevine that shouldn' t be used to emphasise text for
> screen readers as it shouts a word rather than emphasises it!

I believe that "shout" is a bit of an overstatement...

Not knowing Generator MS Word, I'm not sure, but I'd assume it does a
dumb "italics to " conversion?

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

From: Darian Glover
Date: Sat, Jan 27 2007 12:40PM
Subject: Re: vs 
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renders as emphasized text. renders as strong emphasized text.

Darian.

On 1/22/07, Gary Williamson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Generator Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium) I' ve heard on the grapevine that shouldn' t be used to emphasise text for screen readers as it shouts a word rather than emphasises it! If this is the case what can be used as an alternative? I' ve heard can be used instead, however, I' m not sure how?
>
> Regards
>
> Gary
>

From: Hunt, Jan
Date: Mon, Feb 12 2007 9:30AM
Subject: Re: vs 
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Why is it that when I use JAWS or HomePage Reader, I detect no
difference in , , or ?

From: John Foliot - Stanford Online Accessibility Program
Date: Mon, Feb 12 2007 10:10AM
Subject: Re: vs 
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Hunt, Jan wrote:
> Why is it that when I use JAWS or HomePage Reader, I detect no
> difference in , , or ?

Backwards compatibility. It is preferred that you use the and 
elements when required, but because of legacy documents the screen readers
(for now) will read them essentially the same.

JF

>
>

From: Hunt, Jan
Date: Mon, Feb 12 2007 1:20PM
Subject: Re: vs 
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John Foliot wrote:
Backwards compatibility. It is preferred that you use the and

elements when required, but because of legacy documents the screen
readers
(for now) will read them essentially the same.

Sorry, I didn't make myself real clear on the original question. What I
should have said is "why is it when I use JAWS or HomePage Reader, I
hear no difference in words marked up with any of these tags 
 from the basic paragraph text." There is no emphasis or
stronger voice inflections for any of them. Actually, I would never know
the tags existed within my web page had I not coded them myself.

Do you-all hear a difference in the pronunciation of text marked up with
any of these tags?

Thanks!

From: Rebecca Ballard
Date: Mon, Feb 12 2007 1:40PM
Subject: Re: vs 
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Jan,

I can't speak about HomePage Reader, but by default, the jaws settings for
Internet Explorer (and probably Firefox as well as other HTML documents) is
to not pick up changes in font etc. It would really get in the way I have to
say. Screen reader users are going to get emphasis from the words
themselves. My advice would be, don't get hung up about it for screen reader
users.

Rebecca

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Rebecca

Rebecca Ballard
Computer Training and Assistive Technology Solutions
PO Box 5157
Cardiff
CF5 9BB

Tel: 020 8133 1962
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From: Tim Beadle
Date: Tue, Feb 13 2007 1:40AM
Subject: Re: vs 
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On 12/02/07, Rebecca Ballard < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I can't speak about HomePage Reader, but by default, the jaws settings for
> Internet Explorer (and probably Firefox as well as other HTML documents) is
> to not pick up changes in font etc. It would really get in the way I have to
> say. Screen reader users are going to get emphasis from the words
> themselves. My advice would be, don't get hung up about it for screen reader
> users.

Interesting. That runs counter to most advice I've ever read on the
whole /, / issue.

I don't just bluntly replace all instances of with , as
emphasis isn't always what italicisation is trying to achieve. For
instance I use the <cite> element to mark up names of publications or
quoted authors/speakers, and this has wider semantic benefits.

"Use strong and em" is such a mantra, though. It was WCAG 1, if I
recall correctly, that made the recommendation. It wouldn't be the
first time that the w3c and the real world were, let's say, not
entirely close :p

Tim

From: Penny Roberts
Date: Tue, Feb 13 2007 3:30AM
Subject: Re: vs 
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Rebecca Ballard wrote:
> Jan,
>
> I can't speak about HomePage Reader, but by default, the jaws settings for
> Internet Explorer (and probably Firefox as well as other HTML documents) is
> to not pick up changes in font etc. It would really get in the way I have to
> say. Screen reader users are going to get emphasis from the words
> themselves.

I'm not sure I follow you: how do screen reader users get the emphasis
from the words themselves if they are not being read differently? Do
you mean by context? Surely emphasis is used where context alone is not
sufficient?

Penny

From: Paul R. Bohman
Date: Tue, Feb 13 2007 7:20AM
Subject: Re: vs 
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On 2/13/07, Tim Beadle < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> I don't just bluntly replace all instances of with , as
> emphasis isn't always what italicisation is trying to achieve.

I may be stating the obvious, but in the cases where you need italics but
not emphasis, that would be an appropriate instance to use styles instead of
, something like this:

This is italicized

With the style being something like this:

.italic {
font-style:italic;
}

--
Paul R. Bohman
Faculty, College of Education & Human Development
Lead Architect of Web Services, Office of Technology Support
Technology Coordinator, Kellar Institute for Human disAbilities
George Mason University

From: Tim Beadle
Date: Tue, Feb 13 2007 7:50AM
Subject: Re: vs 
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On 13/02/07, Paul R. Bohman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I may be stating the obvious, but in the cases where you need italics but
> not emphasis, that would be an appropriate instance to use styles instead of
> , something like this:
>
> This is italicized
>
> With the style being something like this:
>
> .italic {
> font-style:italic;
> }

I suspect we're in holy war territory. I'd rather save the bytes and
use , personally, as it's just as semantically vanilla as .

Tim

From: Patrick Lauke
Date: Tue, Feb 13 2007 8:20AM
Subject: Re: vs 
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> Tim Beadle

> I suspect we're in holy war territory. I'd rather save the bytes and
> use , personally, as it's just as semantically vanilla as class="italic">.

...don't start...

P

From: Penny Roberts
Date: Tue, Feb 13 2007 9:00AM
Subject: Re: vs 
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Patrick Lauke wrote:
>> Tim Beadle
>
>> I suspect we're in holy war territory. I'd rather save the bytes and
>> use , personally, as it's just as semantically vanilla as > class="italic">.
>
> ...don't start...

... oh go on ....

Penny

(Seriously, there is a lot to be learnt from reading the arguments put
forward on both sides.)

From: Tim Beadle
Date: Tue, Feb 13 2007 9:20AM
Subject: Re: vs 
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On 13/02/07, Penny Roberts < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> ... oh go on ....
> (Seriously, there is a lot to be learnt from reading the arguments put
> forward on both sides.)

1. describes formatting - that something should be italic, but it
otherwise _means_ nothing.
2. describes some meaning - that something should be emphasised.
3. is a utility element with no semantics (except when
microformat attributes are added).

Therefore there is no semantic benefit to using over .

There's a downside, though: you've added 21 bytes to your HTML (each
time you need italic text) and about 35 bytes (one time) to your CSS.

Tim

From: Patrick Lauke
Date: Tue, Feb 13 2007 9:50AM
Subject: Re: vs 
← Previous message | Next message →

> Penny Roberts

> ... oh go on ....
>
> Penny
>
> (Seriously, there is a lot to be learnt from reading the
> arguments put
> forward on both sides.)

I haven't even got the energy to repeat the whole discussion, as it only happened last month on the WSG list...so I'd suggest reading through that

http://www.mail-archive.com/ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = /msg07360.html

P (taking the lazy way out)

From: John Foliot - Stanford Online Accessibility Program
Date: Tue, Feb 13 2007 11:20AM
Subject: Re: vs 
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Penny Roberts wrote:
>
> (Seriously, there is a lot to be learnt from reading the arguments put
> forward on both sides.)

Penny, I would echo Patrick's suggestion of reviewing the WSG thread as
well, but the argument boils down to this:

 and are presentational, but have no semantic meaning, whereas 
and have some implied semantic meaning, even if that meaning is
"weak".

The argument centers on the notion that if you are making some form of
visual presentational change to your text (by bolding it or italicizing it)
that you are implying some distinction (ergo semantic distinction) to the
text affected by that markup. The question then becomes "why", and "what"
exactly are you trying to indicate when you do this. There are other
mark-up elements (such as the oft referenced <cite>) that carry more
semantic weight, and can be styled via CSS to be bold, italic, and
sky-blue-pink if you so wish, but the <cite> element has a meaning, and 
does not.

Some argue that the use of the neutral element can also be used to
add visual formatting like this, but then again
the question becomes "why" and "what" are you doing this for, and how do you
convey that similar inference and meaning to non-visual users.

The debate, like many, has no end.

Hope this helps.

JF

From: Hunt, Jan
Date: Tue, Feb 13 2007 1:20PM
Subject: Re: vs 
← Previous message | Next message →

Tim wrote -
"Use strong and em" is such a mantra, though. It was WCAG 1, if I
recall correctly, that made the recommendation. It wouldn't be the
first time that the w3c and the real world were, let's say, not
entirely close :p

And Jan says -
Thanks, what I gather here is that all the talk about using and
 because screen readers will read that text differently was a theory
that never got put into action.

I felt kind of stupid telling folks in my department to use and
 instead of or (where appropriate) so the screen readers
would place inflection on that text, only to find out that screen
readers ignore and . One day, while listening to a
page, it dawned on me that there was no inflection created by using any
of those tags.

From: John Foliot - Stanford Online Accessibility Program
Date: Tue, Feb 13 2007 1:30PM
Subject: Re: vs 
← Previous message | Next message →

Hunt, Jan wrote:
>
> I felt kind of stupid telling folks in my department to use 
> and instead of or (where appropriate) so the screen
> readers would place inflection on that text, only to find out that
> screen readers ignore and . One day, while
> listening to a page, it dawned on me that there was no inflection
> created by using any of those tags.

While the current crop of screen reading software may not differentiate
between these elements, there is nothing to say that someday some tool
*will*, and you should never feel stupid about preaching/teaching best
practices, and backwards compatibility

My $0.02

JF

From: Rebecca Ballard
Date: Tue, Feb 13 2007 3:50PM
Subject: Re: vs 
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Hi all,

Just to clarify my earlier comments, screen readers (or at least Jaws) _can_
differentiate, it's just that most users don't switch the facility on.

Rebecca

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From: Hunt, Jan
Date: Wed, Feb 14 2007 1:30PM
Subject: Re: vs 
← Previous message | Next message →

Rebecca wrote -
Just to clarify my earlier comments, screen readers (or at least Jaws)
_can_ differentiate, it's just that most users don't switch the facility
on.

JAN-
That's what I thought might be happening but I have not found anywhere
within the JAWS or HomePage Reader software, nor within their
documentation, anything that talks about turning on any such capability.

John wrote -
While the current crop of screen reading software may not differentiate
between these elements, there is nothing to say that someday some tool
*will*, and you should never feel stupid about preaching/teaching best
practices, and backwards compatibility

My $0.02

JAN -
I think your 2 cents is excellent advice and I do continue using
 and just in case screen readers start to recognize them.
But, I now point out that logic when I ask that my designers use
 and instead of or 

Again, thanks everybody!

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed, Feb 14 2007 1:50PM
Subject: Re: vs 
← Previous message | Next message →

Look up "voice alias" in the JAWS docs.
You can also hit ins+f+f (quickly) to get the text characteristics.

JAWS treats b and strong the same, and em and i the same.

AWK

>

From: Patrick Burke
Date: Wed, Feb 14 2007 2:00PM
Subject: Re: vs 
← Previous message | Next message →

At 12:21 PM 2/14/2007, Hunt, Jan wrote:
>Rebecca wrote -
>Just to clarify my earlier comments, screen readers (or at least Jaws)
>_can_ differentiate, it's just that most users don't switch the facility
>on.
>
>JAN-
>That's what I thought might be happening but I have not found anywhere
>within the JAWS or HomePage Reader software, nor within their
>documentation, anything that talks about turning on any such capability.

For Jaws 8 & IE7, Try this:

Insert-F6 from within IE. (This will bring up the Jaws Config Manager
with the IE config file open.)

Go to the Settings Menu > Speech & Sounds Manager. Choose one of the
options from the list, such as "Proofreading: Attributes, Font Info
and Color". Save your choice & read a web page. This will cause very
interesting changes in the speech output for various HTML features
(based on the parameters in Settings > Voice Aliases).

Granted this doesn't tell you about or per se. Instead
Jaws tells you about & reacts to the font, color etc. that the
browser or stylesheet uses to display the emphasis. But the change in
speech is definitely there.

Apologies if this still isn't what you're after.

Patrick
--
Patrick J. Burke

Coordinator
UCLA Disabilities &
Computing Program

Phone: 310 206-6004
E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Rebecca Ballard
Date: Wed, Feb 14 2007 2:20PM
Subject: Re: vs 
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For jaws settings you'll find ALT + insert + s will give you the list of
schemes or look in the configuration manager, speech and sounds manager for
the full poosibilities.

Rebecca

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From: Joshue O Connor
Date: Wed, Feb 14 2007 3:30PM
Subject: Re: vs 
← Previous message | Next message →

I cannot but watch this thread with amusement in that I cant imagine any
ordinary screen reader user doing any of the suggested steps whether its

> hit ins+f+f (quickly) to get the text characteristics.

or modifying the configuration manager to ensure bold or italicized text
is read out.

The discussion itself has some value in that there can be a very limited
semantics with this information but - to me - it seems like a lot of
pushing and pulling for little reward.

josh

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From: smithj7
Date: Wed, Feb 14 2007 8:40PM
Subject: Re: vs 
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I agree Joshue that most speech users are not going to take the time to get
in out of modes just to see if text is labeled for any type of emphasis be
it bold or italitics expressed with i or em or b or strong. I somewhat
wondering why the focus is just on speech (specifically JAWS users).

The way we use codes to display visual material effects other folks as well.

For example, except for citations (where appropriate - cause we cite books
for the Library part of our web site where I'm now starting to use the cite
rather than em) I don't use a script that would render italics as our low
vision users have difficulty reading the text. (Got a complaints several
years ago when italics code seemed popular.) Also, sometimes highlighting
text by using strong is to helping sighted folks, especially folks with
reading disabilities, know what is important.

He..he.. then folks like me have folks like public relations officers and
bosses who decide "look and feel" based on old time paper graphic designs.
I must keep these folks happy too.

I use stuff like strong and color for the sighted folks and try to ensure
when items should be important to speech users to have tags like h2, h3 do
the styling as well. If that makes sense. Kinda helps hit two groups with
one coding..

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshue O Connor" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] vs 

>I cannot but watch this thread with amusement in that I cant imagine any
> ordinary screen reader user doing any of the suggested steps whether its
>
>> hit ins+f+f (quickly) to get the text characteristics.
>
> or modifying the configuration manager to ensure bold or italicized text
> is read out.
>
> The discussion itself has some value in that there can be a very limited
> semantics with this information but - to me - it seems like a lot of
> pushing and pulling for little reward.
>
> josh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ********************************************************************
>
> NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments
> is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of
> the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify
> the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to
> delete it and any attachments from your system.
>
> NCBI endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated
> by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However,
> it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are
> transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.
>
> Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email
> and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily
> represent the views of NCBI
>
>
> ********************************************************************
>
>
>
>

From: Joshue O Connor
Date: Thu, Feb 15 2007 5:30AM
Subject: Re: vs 
← Previous message | Next message →

> I don't use a script that would render italics as our low vision users have difficulty reading the text.

Lest we forget.

Its an important point - that using italics can be problematic for
visually impaired users. I am guilty of using them myself from time to
time but its important to note that using them also goes against the
grain of some clear print (sic) guidelines.[1]

Josh

[1]
http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/publicWebsite/public_seeitright.hcsp

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From: Penny Roberts
Date: Thu, Feb 15 2007 9:50AM
Subject: Re: vs 
← Previous message | Next message →

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> I agree Joshue that most speech users are not going to take the time to get
> in out of modes just to see if text is labeled for any type of emphasis be
> it bold or italitics expressed with i or em or b or strong. I somewhat
> wondering why the focus is just on speech (specifically JAWS users).
>
> The way we use codes to display visual material effects other folks as well.

Indeed, the use of emphasis and strong convey important visual
information but it is a shame that speech reader users don't hear it,
particularly emphasis, because it is there for a reason: it conveys
meaning that simple context does not.
If I say "do not use the lift" it means "you shouldn't use the lift".
If I say "*do not* use the lift" it means "only an idiot with a death
wish would use the lift". If I were reading it aloud (as part of a set
of verbal instructions for instance) I wouldn't speak the words "do not"
in an ordinary voice because that would not convey the intended meaning.

Penny

From: Patrick Burke
Date: Thu, Feb 15 2007 3:20PM
Subject: Re: vs 
← Previous message | Next message →

At 02:28 PM 2/14/2007, Joshue O Connor wrote:
>I cannot but watch this thread with amusement in that I cant imagine any
>ordinary screen reader user doing any of the suggested steps whether its
>
> > hit ins+f+f (quickly) to get the text characteristics.
>
>or modifying the configuration manager to ensure bold or italicized text
>is read out.

After a few minutes of hearing exactly how many font/color changes
there are on the web, I was grateful to be able to switch back to
"Classic" mode & ignore whatever emphasis might lurk there. :)

Anyway, keyboard interfaces are funny things, esp. when all the good
key combinations get eaten up by your "productivity" apps.

So, there's not really an easy way around this. Jaws has mostly shied
away from using blips & beeps to indicate text changes, although this
approach has gained a foothold in Apple's Voiceover program. But it's
hard to find a method that some people won't find annoying.

Anyway, for those wanting to dig into the Jaws web features, here is
a tutorial (linked to in the Jaws help file for IE):

<http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/Surfs_Up/_Surfs_Up_Start_Here.htm>;

Patrick

--
Patrick J. Burke

Coordinator
UCLA Disabilities &
Computing Program

Phone: 310 206-6004
E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Joshue O Connor
Date: Fri, Feb 16 2007 5:10AM
Subject: Re: vs 
← Previous message | Next message →

Good points guys.

As it is - in this case - a life or death situation and there are
insufficient semantics to hand, you could be forgiven for:

<h1>Do not use the lift</h1>
<h2>Only an idiot with a death wish would use the lift</h2>

Maybe coupled with a nice flash movie of man falling down the lift
shaft, audio described of course :)

Josh

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********************************************************************

From: Patrick Lauke
Date: Fri, Feb 16 2007 9:10AM
Subject: Re: vs 
← Previous message | No next message

> Joshue O Connor

> <h1>Do not use the lift</h1>
> <h2>Only an idiot with a death wish would use the lift</h2>
>
> Maybe coupled with a nice flash movie of man falling down the lift
> shaft, audio described of course :)


<marquee><blink>Do not use the lift</blink></marquee>


:)

P

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