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Thread: Skip links and SEO
Number of posts in this thread: 31 (In chronological order)
From: MP
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 8:30AM
Subject: Skip links and SEO
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Hi all,
I've been discussing with some colleagues lately SEO and accessibility.
Usually, I consider that SEO and accessibility to go hand and hand - make
your content accessible to people with disabilities, and surely a robot
machine at Google can read it too.
However, a colleague of mine had been to an SEO conference, where she was
told flat out that you should never ever hide text, otherwise it will hurt
your Google rankings. The way she said the guy said it, it sounded like a
cardinal rule/mantra. At first, it made sense to me (remember all that white
on white text, hiding extra keywords, etc). But then I also thought back to
something as simple as a "Skip to Content" which can be hidden from a
standard web browser in any host of ways.
I tried to get a definitive answer on this toic, but no luck. The Matt
Cutt's blog (http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/) talks a lot about hidden links
and how malicious they are, and how Google will cut you down if you use
them, but he never answers the particular question about when things are
hidden for accessibility's sake (although he's asked all the time in the
comments). There's lots of speculation, and discussion as to whether skip
links should be hidden/used at all, but what I really want to know is what
of the consequence of using them now for SEO. It seems that Google lowering
your rankings because you use what may be considered one of the most
standard items on an accessible site seems just a little bit crazy.
Before I send out a memo that says "stop using skip links," I'd like to get
some different takes on it. It seems that nowadays, if someone at Google
says jump, web designers all how high.
Marissa
From: Patrick Lauke
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 8:40AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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> However, a colleague of mine had been to an SEO conference,
> where she was
> told flat out that you should never ever hide text, otherwise
> it will hurt
> your Google rankings.
Bullsh*t. Sorry, I meant...urban myth. There is no evidence to suggest this. There is also no evidence to suggest that Googlebot and similar crawlers actively analyse a page and its CSS to try to divine if something is hidden or not (and, with the myriad of different ways of doing this in CSS, it would be a significant performance hit, if possible at all). Google and co. still rely on human intervention, i.e. somebody noticing that a page has something like 3 pages of keywords at the end of the actual document, but styled as hidden, and for that person to then contact Google, who will evaluate whether or not there's some shady practice and take punitive action if necessary. This is, from what I remember, what happened to BMW's site in Germany a few months ago...somebody noticed, blew the whistle to Google, and Google penalised the site by dropping their rank...manually.
P
From: Karl Groves
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 9:10AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Just for clarification (even though Patrick already touched on it):
Google "discovers" these when they're reported. They have a page set up to
accept such reports:
http://www.google.com/contact/spamreport.html
Karl L. Groves
User-Centered Design, Inc.
Office: 703-729-0998
Mobile: 443-889-8763
E-Mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web: http://www.user-centereddesign.com
>
From: Patrick Lauke
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 9:20AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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> We are after all only talking about a few hidden skiplinks
unless you're trying to get to #1 rank for the term "skip" or something :)
P
From: ben morrison
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 9:30AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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On 5/2/07, Karl Groves < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> First, hidden text *does* work from an SEO standpoint. That's not the issue
> It is frowned upon not because it will hurt your rankings but because Google
> will out-and-out delist your site if they discover the hidden text.
We are after all only talking about a few hidden skiplinks, so I'm
sure those clever folk at google could work out an algorithm if they
deduced the CSS was hiding the links...
ben
--
Ben Morrison
http://www.benjaminmorrison.com
From: Nelson-Brooks, Carolyn
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 9:40AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Hi all,
I agree with Michael and probably others of you who like the skip links.
What is the problem with making life a little easier for us who don't
want to hear all the garbage on the screen when you can just skip all of
that and save time.
From: Nelson-Brooks, Carolyn
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 9:50AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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The irs.gov website is a perfect example where the skip links are very
helpful for me. Imagine sorting for a particular form and having to go
through loads of other information just to get to where you're trying to
go on a webpage --- quite annoying, huh?
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 10:00AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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> Why hide the skip links at all?
^ that
--
Chris Heilmann
Book: http://www.beginningjavascript.com
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
From: Robert Yonaitis
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 10:10AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Hello All:
I would agree with Mike as well, the Skip Links makes good sense
overall.
Robert B. Yonaitis
CTO
HiSoftware Inc.
http://www.hisoftware.com/
From: Michael R. Burks
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 10:20AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Perhaps I am not being clear,
I do not use a screen reader. I would like to see the skip navigation links
on the page so I do not have to search in the bottom left hand corner of the
browser.
Again, sounds like we are designing pages for people with only one kind of
disability.
Sincerely,
Mike Burks
From: Michael R. Burks
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 10:30AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Yes!
Even if you can see the links it is often good to be able to skip the
"garbage". I have seen pages that have several skip links to various
portions of the page, and that can be quite helpful!
For me this can make the page much more usable.
Mike Burks
919 870 8788 - Office
919-882-1884 - Fax
703-254-3881 - Cell
From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 10:40AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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I think it's worth everyone getting onto the same page with a good
article first:
http://juicystudio.com/article/skip-links.php
And the comments below it.
Whilst I agree with Patrick, there is currently a 'usability gap' that
needs bridging.
Kind regards,
-Alastair
--
Alastair Campbell | Director of User Experience
Nomensa Email Disclaimer:
http://www.nomensa.com/email-disclaimer.html
From: Karl Groves
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 10:50AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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First, hidden text *does* work from an SEO standpoint. That's not the issue
It is frowned upon not because it will hurt your rankings but because Google
will out-and-out delist your site if they discover the hidden text.
That being said, I've never heard of anyone who's been delisted because they
had a skip link. Surely if Google can discover hidden text, and discovers
the skip link, they're smart enough to understand the difference between a
skip link and keyword stuffing.
Karl L. Groves
User-Centered Design, Inc.
Office: 703-729-0998
Mobile: 443-889-8763
E-Mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web: http://www.user-centereddesign.com
>
From: Michael R. Burks
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 11:00AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Why hide the skip links at all?
I find them useful.
Others may as well. Or are we only building pages that cater to one
disability?
Sincerely,
Mike Burks
From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 11:10AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Patrick Lauke wrote:
> There is no evidence
> to suggest this. There is also no evidence to suggest that
> Googlebot and similar crawlers actively analyse a page and
> its CSS to try to divine if something is hidden or not
Chris Heilmann was on the receiving end of something similar:
http://www.wait-till-i.com/index.php?p=360
I've also heard they have hired people to built a CSS parser, and this
would be an obvious use of it.
Not that I think hiding skip links will be an issue, but for larger
potions of text I suspect it would be.
A rule such as "ignore within-page hidden links" in the parser would be
very simple to include.
Kind regards,
-Alastair
--
Alastair Campbell | Director of User Experience
Nomensa Email Disclaimer:
http://www.nomensa.com/email-disclaimer.html
From: Michael R. Burks
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 11:20AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Yes they are very good links, they would be even better if I could see them
on the page. I have mobility impairments and like to use the tab key, of
course I can look for them in the bottom left of the browser window, but
sometimes I do not remember to do that!
Nonetheless a good set of links!
Mike Burks
919 870 8788 - Office
919-882-1884 - Fax
703-254-3881 - Cell
From: Patrick Lauke
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 11:30AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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> Michael R. Burks
> Why hide the skip links at all?
>
> I find them useful.
>
> Others may as well. Or are we only building pages that cater to one
> disability?
The larger discussion here should be: why don't all user agents provide reasonable ways to navigate via keyboard, jumping over block level elements etc (Opera leads the pack here)?
Skip links are stop-gap solutions that *content* authors add to their pages to make up for lack of functionality in current browsers, IMHO.
Secondly, it's not really a problem to have a hidden skip link, as long as it's visible (in an obvious place, where the user would expect it...if it's the first link in the tab cycle, this would be top-left of the page) when it receives focus - I did this ages ago on Molly's site www.molly.com, and the same technique was adapted for the WaSP site www.webstandards.org
P
From: John Foliot - Stanford Online Accessibility Program
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 11:40AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Patrick Lauke wrote:
> unless you're trying to get to #1 rank for the term "skip" or
> something :)
>
LOL - a Google Search for "Skip Navigation" returned the usual cast of
characters, in order:
* Jim Thatcher
* WebAIM
* Mark Pilgrim (diveintoaccessibility)
* Joe Clark
... So even then, it seems Google is already ignoring "Skip Navigation" as a
link at the top of your document(s).
>
> Secondly, it's not really a problem to have a hidden skip link, as
> long as it's visible (in an obvious place, where the user would
> expect it...if it's the first link in the tab cycle, this would be
> top-left of the page) when it receives focus - I did this ages ago on
> Molly's site www.molly.com, and the same technique was adapted for
> the WaSP site www.webstandards.org
I tend to agree as well. While a 'visible' link may help some, there are
also visual/branding considerations that must be acknowledged - to do so is
to ignore other users/content creators "needs". Place a skip nav that
appears on focus, is to me anyway, a workable compromise.
JF
---
John Foliot
Academic Technology Consultant
Stanford Online Accessibility Program
http://soap.stanford.edu
Stanford University
560 Escondido Mall
Meyer Library 181
Stanford, CA 94305-3093
Tel: 650-862-4603
From: Michael R. Burks
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 11:50AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Alastair,
Good article lays it out pretty well.
Thanks to Gez for putting it so simply.
Sincerely,
Mike Burks
919 870 8788 - Office
919-882-1884 - Fax
703-254-3881 - Cell
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 12:20PM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Michael R. Burks wrote:
> Perhaps I am not being clear,
>
> I do not use a screen reader. I would like to see the skip navigation links
> on the page so I do not have to search in the bottom left hand corner of the
> browser.
I think you missed the part of my email where I said the link can be
hidden initially, but become visible (in an obvious, expected place)
when it receives focus.
Once again, you'll see this on http://www.webstandards.org/ for instance
(3 tabs to make it appear, though personally I would have made it the
second or even first link).
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 12:30PM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Alastair Campbell wrote:
> Whilst I agree with Patrick, there is currently a 'usability gap' that
> needs bridging.
The usual lament that will pursue me to my grave, I think...
:)
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
From: smithj7
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 4:10PM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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I'm guessing that the problem is "language". I'm more an html person,
but work for blind services and we get requests on how to make
applications, cbts and other items accessible. I discovered that in a
.net envirnmnent, hidden DOES in fact mean hidden. Even AT can't read
it. However, on a website, if I use CSS to "hide" the skip navigation,
it is accessible to AT and search engines. I hope this makes sense. I
could be explain it using the wrong language. <grinning wickedly>
From: Keith Parks
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 7:20PM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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On May 2, 2007, at 9:10 AM, Michael R. Burks wrote:
> Again, sounds like we are designing pages for people with only one
> kind of
> disability.
Can someone explain how a "Skip Links" link would be useful for
someone using keyboard navigation (tabbing), the other audience
mentioned in this thread.
In the couple of samples mentioned/linked on posts, if I'm tabbing
through links, come upon the "Skip" link, and hit Enter, the screen
jumps to that spot (Beginning of Main Content), but the Focus did
not, so if I continue tabbing (to get to links *within* the
"Content"), it goes back to where it was (the link following the
"Skip" link). So one has to end up tabbing through all the links anyway.
Or am I missing something?
TIA,
Keith
******************************
Keith Parks
Graphic Designer/Web Designer
Student Affairs Communications Services
San Diego State University
San Diego, CA 92182-7444
(619) 594-1046
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.sdsu.edu
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications
----------------------------------------------------------
A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma, served with a side of
slaw.
From: Randall Pope2
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 7:50PM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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"Again, sounds like we are designing pages for people with only one kind of
disability."
Actually the skip links can benefit those who use the keyboard instead of
the mouse. This concept work well with people with low vision and don't use
screen readers, less time to find the link or/and content of the page. Also
we need to consider people have carpal tunnels and cannot use the mouse.
Many thanks for the suggestion as I'm going back to the drawing board to
revise the hidden skip links with CSS. The testing site is
http://aadb.org/testing if anyone is curious of my new project. It still
has a long way to go.
Take care,
Randy Pope
From: Jared Smith
Date: Wed, May 02 2007 9:30PM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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On 5/2/07, Keith Parks wrote:
> In the couple of samples mentioned/linked on posts, if I'm tabbing
> through links, come upon the "Skip" link, and hit Enter, the screen
> jumps to that spot (Beginning of Main Content), but the Focus did
> not, so if I continue tabbing (to get to links *within* the
> "Content"), it goes back to where it was (the link following the
> "Skip" link). So one has to end up tabbing through all the links anyway.
>
> Or am I missing something?
A Google search or search in this list's archives for "haslayout" will
provide much on the topic, at least for Internet Explorer. It's a bug
that has lingered for many years in IE, despite plenty of begging and
pleading for it to be fixed.
The short of it is, that if the tab focus doesn't change, then your
browser is broken. Unfortunately, most of them are. I did an audit a
while back of the browsers that actually do this correctly, let alone
support keyboard navigation at all. There were very few that
functioned correctly. Firefox on a PC (and on a Mac if you modify an
about:config setting) and a few other less common browsers were the
only ones to really support navigation to anchors or ids. Screen
readers often fix this bad behavior, though that does little for
keyboard users that don't have a screen reader.
Jared Smith
WebAIM
From: Moore, Michael
Date: Thu, May 03 2007 8:10AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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No you are not missing anything, there is a feature of IE does not allow
in page links to function as expected unless the anchors are located
within a table cell. There are several hacks available to resolve this
issue. There is a great discussion of this issue on Jim Thatchers site
http://www.jimthatcher.com/skipnav.htm scroll down to about the middle
of the page.
Mike Moore
Accessibility Specialist
Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services (DARS)
(512) 424-4159
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Thu, May 03 2007 8:20AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Quoting "Moore, Michael" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> No you are not missing anything, there is a feature of IE does not allow
> in page links to function as expected unless the anchors are located
> within a table cell.
Not just table cell. It's more to do with the hasLayout attribute in
IE. For instance, I have a skiplink on www.salford.ac.uk (hidden until
you focus it, first TAB brings it up) that works just fine without the
need for an <a name="..."> anchor, or table cell, or any other kludge.
It just targets the ID of one of the divs, but because of the way the
content div is styled, IE recognises it as having layout, and treats
it accordingly (i.e. keyboard focus moves to the div, and a subsequent
TAB goes to the first link in the div).
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Thu, May 03 2007 8:30AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Quoting "Moore, Michael" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> Am I correct in assuming that this works by applying positional styles
> to the div?
Tell you the truth, I actually don't quite know why the Salford page
*does* work...I believe it's mostly down to giving it a certain width.
Also, with the skip link scenario, I seem to remember that the parent
element also needs to have hasLayout. It's all a bit confusing, and I
have to admit that it's more of a lucky accident than intentional
coding that brought me to my working skip link on the uni site...
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
From: Moore, Michael
Date: Thu, May 03 2007 8:40AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Thanks Patrick,
Am I correct in assuming that this works by applying positional styles
to the div?
Mike
From: Moore, Michael
Date: Thu, May 03 2007 8:50AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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Ah,
Well that explains why my little "hack" for our internal manuals worked,
the divs have widths assigned. I think that now I should be able to
eliminate the annoying extra white space that I also acquired.
Thanks,
Mike
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Thu, May 03 2007 9:00AM
Subject: Re: Skip links and SEO
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On 5/3/07, Moore, Michael < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thanks Patrick,
>
> Am I correct in assuming that this works by applying positional styles
> to the div?
Yep, or a width, or "zoom:1" or or or ...
http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html
--
Chris Heilmann
Book: http://www.beginningjavascript.com
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/