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Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)

From: Paul Collins
Date: Mon, Jun 25 2007 8:10AM
Subject: The title attribute and screen readers
No previous message | Next message →

Hi all,

After reading the WCAG1 errata by the WCAG Samurai recently, I came
across this one which got my curiosity:

QUOTE
"Do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not change the
current window without informing the user. (Plain text is the
preferred method of informing the user. The title attribute on a
hyperlink a element can suffice.)"
END QUOTE

I was always under the impression that the title attribute would not
be read out by default using the bulk of screen readers and therefore
it should not be used to convey vital information like a popup window
about to occur.

I've been doing some reading and this still seems to be the case, but
perhaps I am not looking at up-to date articles either? Can anyone
give me their thoughts on the title attribute and how they are using
it currently?

ZOOM TEXT
In the past, when using image replacement on titles, I had added the
title attribute displaying the same as the graphic, so people using
Zoom Text could at least enlarge this. However, if titles were now to
be read out with screen reading software, this would become really
annoying as it would be read out twice. EG:

<h1 class="replace" title="This is a heading"><em></em>This is a heading</h1>

Am I going the down the appropriate path by still doing this?

Cheers
Paul

From: Léonie Watson
Date: Mon, Jun 25 2007 8:50AM
Subject: Re: The title attribute and screen readers
← Previous message | Next message →

Paul Collins wrote:

"I was always under the impression that the title attribute would not be read out by default using the bulk of screen readers and therefore it should not be used to convey vital information like a popup window about to occur."

This is certainly the case with Jaws. It is possible to configure it to pick up the title attribute in a link, but it is not done by default. I believe it's the same in Window Eyes, but my version's up the spout at the moment, so I can't check.

Regards,
Léonie.

From: Jared Smith
Date: Mon, Jun 25 2007 9:20AM
Subject: Re: The title attribute and screen readers
← Previous message | Next message →

On 6/25/07, Paul Collins wrote:

> After reading the WCAG1 errata by the WCAG Samurai recently, I came
> across this one which got my curiosity:

Please note that the WCAG Samurai is in draft right now. The final
version is due to be released this week, so things may change. And
this is one of several points in the Samurai that is in conflict with
conventional accessibility recommendations.

> I was always under the impression that the title attribute would not
> be read out by default using the bulk of screen readers and therefore
> it should not be used to convey vital information like a popup window
> about to occur.

I agree. This really depends on how you interpret the words "advisory
information" from the HTML spec regarding title attribute. Joe and the
gang seem to interpret it to mean that it can contain more important
or even vital information. Most accessibility recommendations today
suggest limiting title to non-vital, supplementary information. Much
of this, however, arises from the fact that screen readers didn't have
an option for reading title until recently.

> Can anyone give me their thoughts on the title attribute and how they are using
> it currently?

I use it only for supplementary information. While screen readers
*may* read it, most will not. Ever. The title attribute is much abused
and I imagine most screen reader users would rather ignore the garbage
than catch the occasional tidbit of useful information they contain.

Also, there is no method for keyboard only access to title information
for sighted keyboard users. This is entirely a user agent issue, but
is another check mark against using title for important information.

> ZOOM TEXT
> However, if titles were now to
> be read out with screen reading software, this would become really
> annoying as it would be read out twice. EG:
>
> <h1 class="replace" title="This is a heading"><em></em>This is a heading</h1>

Yes, it would be annoying. This example does seem to be contradictory
to the "advisory information" language of the spec. However, you could
certainly argue that "This is an important heading" would be advisory.

Without some clarification of the specification itself, we'll continue
to have divergent opinions on the use of title. Until then, I'm going
to take a fairly conservative approach to their use.

Jared Smith
WebAIM

From: Paul Collins
Date: Mon, Jun 25 2007 10:10AM
Subject: Re: The title attribute and screen readers
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks for your responses all.

> Please note that the WCAG Samurai is in draft right now.

Good point, I will wait to see what they recommend in the final draft.

> Without some clarification of the specification itself, we'll continue
> to have divergent opinions on the use of title. Until then, I'm going
> to take a fairly conservative approach to their use.

It would be great to get some examples from either the WCAG Samurai or
the even the WAI themselves on when it is good and bad to use titles.
In addition to this a list of how they behave when they are accessed
not just by screen readers, but by other assistive software such as
Zoom Text would be great to get one day.

I think I will use them cautiously in the meantime also.

Cheers
Paul


On 25/06/07, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> On 6/25/07, Paul Collins wrote:
>
> > After reading the WCAG1 errata by the WCAG Samurai recently, I came
> > across this one which got my curiosity:
>
> Please note that the WCAG Samurai is in draft right now. The final
> version is due to be released this week, so things may change. And
> this is one of several points in the Samurai that is in conflict with
> conventional accessibility recommendations.
>
> > I was always under the impression that the title attribute would not
> > be read out by default using the bulk of screen readers and therefore
> > it should not be used to convey vital information like a popup window
> > about to occur.
>
> I agree. This really depends on how you interpret the words "advisory
> information" from the HTML spec regarding title attribute. Joe and the
> gang seem to interpret it to mean that it can contain more important
> or even vital information. Most accessibility recommendations today
> suggest limiting title to non-vital, supplementary information. Much
> of this, however, arises from the fact that screen readers didn't have
> an option for reading title until recently.
>
> > Can anyone give me their thoughts on the title attribute and how they are using
> > it currently?
>
> I use it only for supplementary information. While screen readers
> *may* read it, most will not. Ever. The title attribute is much abused
> and I imagine most screen reader users would rather ignore the garbage
> than catch the occasional tidbit of useful information they contain.
>
> Also, there is no method for keyboard only access to title information
> for sighted keyboard users. This is entirely a user agent issue, but
> is another check mark against using title for important information.
>
> > ZOOM TEXT
> > However, if titles were now to
> > be read out with screen reading software, this would become really
> > annoying as it would be read out twice. EG:
> >
> > <h1 class="replace" title="This is a heading"><em></em>This is a heading</h1>
>
> Yes, it would be annoying. This example does seem to be contradictory
> to the "advisory information" language of the spec. However, you could
> certainly argue that "This is an important heading" would be advisory.
>
> Without some clarification of the specification itself, we'll continue
> to have divergent opinions on the use of title. Until then, I'm going
> to take a fairly conservative approach to their use.
>
> Jared Smith
> WebAIM
>

From: Loretta Guarino Reid
Date: Mon, Jun 25 2007 11:10AM
Subject: Re: The title attribute and screen readers
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi, Paul,

Here are some techniques related to the use of the title attribute
from the current draft of Techniques for WCAG 2.0. The technique
descriptions contain notes about User Agent support.

- Supplementing link text with the title attribute
http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H33

- Using the title attribute of the frame element
http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H64

- Using the title attribute to identify form controls when the label
element cannot be used
http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H65

Additional User Agent notes about use of the title attribute can be
found in the following techniques:

- Providing definitions for abbreviations by using the abbr and
acronym elements
http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H28

- Providing link text that describes the purpose of a link for anchor
elements http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H30

- Using definition lists
http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H40

- Using label elements to associate text labels with form controls
http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H44





On 6/25/07, Paul Collins < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thanks for your responses all.
>
> > Please note that the WCAG Samurai is in draft right now.
>
> Good point, I will wait to see what they recommend in the final draft.
>
> > Without some clarification of the specification itself, we'll continue
> > to have divergent opinions on the use of title. Until then, I'm going
> > to take a fairly conservative approach to their use.
>
> It would be great to get some examples from either the WCAG Samurai or
> the even the WAI themselves on when it is good and bad to use titles.
> In addition to this a list of how they behave when they are accessed
> not just by screen readers, but by other assistive software such as
> Zoom Text would be great to get one day.
>
> I think I will use them cautiously in the meantime also.
>
> Cheers
> Paul
>
>
> On 25/06/07, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > On 6/25/07, Paul Collins wrote:
> >
> > > After reading the WCAG1 errata by the WCAG Samurai recently, I came
> > > across this one which got my curiosity:
> >
> > Please note that the WCAG Samurai is in draft right now. The final
> > version is due to be released this week, so things may change. And
> > this is one of several points in the Samurai that is in conflict with
> > conventional accessibility recommendations.
> >
> > > I was always under the impression that the title attribute would not
> > > be read out by default using the bulk of screen readers and therefore
> > > it should not be used to convey vital information like a popup window
> > > about to occur.
> >
> > I agree. This really depends on how you interpret the words "advisory
> > information" from the HTML spec regarding title attribute. Joe and the
> > gang seem to interpret it to mean that it can contain more important
> > or even vital information. Most accessibility recommendations today
> > suggest limiting title to non-vital, supplementary information. Much
> > of this, however, arises from the fact that screen readers didn't have
> > an option for reading title until recently.
> >
> > > Can anyone give me their thoughts on the title attribute and how they are using
> > > it currently?
> >
> > I use it only for supplementary information. While screen readers
> > *may* read it, most will not. Ever. The title attribute is much abused
> > and I imagine most screen reader users would rather ignore the garbage
> > than catch the occasional tidbit of useful information they contain.
> >
> > Also, there is no method for keyboard only access to title information
> > for sighted keyboard users. This is entirely a user agent issue, but
> > is another check mark against using title for important information.
> >
> > > ZOOM TEXT
> > > However, if titles were now to
> > > be read out with screen reading software, this would become really
> > > annoying as it would be read out twice. EG:
> > >
> > > <h1 class="replace" title="This is a heading"><em></em>This is a heading</h1>
> >
> > Yes, it would be annoying. This example does seem to be contradictory
> > to the "advisory information" language of the spec. However, you could
> > certainly argue that "This is an important heading" would be advisory.
> >
> > Without some clarification of the specification itself, we'll continue
> > to have divergent opinions on the use of title. Until then, I'm going
> > to take a fairly conservative approach to their use.
> >
> > Jared Smith
> > WebAIM
> >

From: Paul Collins
Date: Mon, Jun 25 2007 11:40AM
Subject: Re: The title attribute and screen readers
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks for all those links Loretta, they were a good read and made me
realise I should read the WAI guidelines more in-depth :)

http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H33
I found it interesting here that the WCAG condone using the title to
warn people about a popup window, even though user agents won't read
it out by default. (See: Example 2: A link that opens in a new window)

http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H65
"f no label is available, JAWS, Window-Eyes, and Home Page Reader
speak the title attribute when the form control receives focus"

Interesting that they only read the title if there is no label
available. Good to know.

An interesting read. I guess the extra stuff I wanted to know was how
assistive technologies other than screen readers react to the title;
EG - Braille embossers and Zoom Text. Not sure how to test the Braille
side of things at least myself.

Thanks for your help.
Paul

On 25/06/07, Loretta Guarino Reid < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi, Paul,
>
> Here are some techniques related to the use of the title attribute
> from the current draft of Techniques for WCAG 2.0. The technique
> descriptions contain notes about User Agent support.
>
> - Supplementing link text with the title attribute
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H33
>
> - Using the title attribute of the frame element
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H64
>
> - Using the title attribute to identify form controls when the label
> element cannot be used
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H65
>
> Additional User Agent notes about use of the title attribute can be
> found in the following techniques:
>
> - Providing definitions for abbreviations by using the abbr and
> acronym elements
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H28
>
> - Providing link text that describes the purpose of a link for anchor
> elements http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H30
>
> - Using definition lists
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H40
>
> - Using label elements to associate text labels with form controls
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H44
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/25/07, Paul Collins < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Thanks for your responses all.
> >
> > > Please note that the WCAG Samurai is in draft right now.
> >
> > Good point, I will wait to see what they recommend in the final draft.
> >
> > > Without some clarification of the specification itself, we'll continue
> > > to have divergent opinions on the use of title. Until then, I'm going
> > > to take a fairly conservative approach to their use.
> >
> > It would be great to get some examples from either the WCAG Samurai or
> > the even the WAI themselves on when it is good and bad to use titles.
> > In addition to this a list of how they behave when they are accessed
> > not just by screen readers, but by other assistive software such as
> > Zoom Text would be great to get one day.
> >
> > I think I will use them cautiously in the meantime also.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > On 25/06/07, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > > On 6/25/07, Paul Collins wrote:
> > >
> > > > After reading the WCAG1 errata by the WCAG Samurai recently, I came
> > > > across this one which got my curiosity:
> > >
> > > Please note that the WCAG Samurai is in draft right now. The final
> > > version is due to be released this week, so things may change. And
> > > this is one of several points in the Samurai that is in conflict with
> > > conventional accessibility recommendations.
> > >
> > > > I was always under the impression that the title attribute would not
> > > > be read out by default using the bulk of screen readers and therefore
> > > > it should not be used to convey vital information like a popup window
> > > > about to occur.
> > >
> > > I agree. This really depends on how you interpret the words "advisory
> > > information" from the HTML spec regarding title attribute. Joe and the
> > > gang seem to interpret it to mean that it can contain more important
> > > or even vital information. Most accessibility recommendations today
> > > suggest limiting title to non-vital, supplementary information. Much
> > > of this, however, arises from the fact that screen readers didn't have
> > > an option for reading title until recently.
> > >
> > > > Can anyone give me their thoughts on the title attribute and how they are using
> > > > it currently?
> > >
> > > I use it only for supplementary information. While screen readers
> > > *may* read it, most will not. Ever. The title attribute is much abused
> > > and I imagine most screen reader users would rather ignore the garbage
> > > than catch the occasional tidbit of useful information they contain.
> > >
> > > Also, there is no method for keyboard only access to title information
> > > for sighted keyboard users. This is entirely a user agent issue, but
> > > is another check mark against using title for important information.
> > >
> > > > ZOOM TEXT
> > > > However, if titles were now to
> > > > be read out with screen reading software, this would become really
> > > > annoying as it would be read out twice. EG:
> > > >
> > > > <h1 class="replace" title="This is a heading"><em></em>This is a heading</h1>
> > >
> > > Yes, it would be annoying. This example does seem to be contradictory
> > > to the "advisory information" language of the spec. However, you could
> > > certainly argue that "This is an important heading" would be advisory.
> > >
> > > Without some clarification of the specification itself, we'll continue
> > > to have divergent opinions on the use of title. Until then, I'm going
> > > to take a fairly conservative approach to their use.
> > >
> > > Jared Smith
> > > WebAIM
> > >

From: Loretta Guarino Reid
Date: Mon, Jun 25 2007 11:50AM
Subject: Re: The title attribute and screen readers
← Previous message | Next message →

These techniques are still in draft and the working group welcomes
feedback, suggestions, corrections, etc.

If you find out more about support by assistive technologies other
than screen readers, we'd like to add that information to the User
Agent notes.

Thanks, Loretta

On 6/25/07, Paul Collins < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thanks for all those links Loretta, they were a good read and made me
> realise I should read the WAI guidelines more in-depth :)
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H33
> I found it interesting here that the WCAG condone using the title to
> warn people about a popup window, even though user agents won't read
> it out by default. (See: Example 2: A link that opens in a new window)
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H65
> "f no label is available, JAWS, Window-Eyes, and Home Page Reader
> speak the title attribute when the form control receives focus"
>
> Interesting that they only read the title if there is no label
> available. Good to know.
>
> An interesting read. I guess the extra stuff I wanted to know was how
> assistive technologies other than screen readers react to the title;
> EG - Braille embossers and Zoom Text. Not sure how to test the Braille
> side of things at least myself.
>
> Thanks for your help.
> Paul
>
> On 25/06/07, Loretta Guarino Reid < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Hi, Paul,
> >
> > Here are some techniques related to the use of the title attribute
> > from the current draft of Techniques for WCAG 2.0. The technique
> > descriptions contain notes about User Agent support.
> >
> > - Supplementing link text with the title attribute
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H33
> >
> > - Using the title attribute of the frame element
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H64
> >
> > - Using the title attribute to identify form controls when the label
> > element cannot be used
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H65
> >
> > Additional User Agent notes about use of the title attribute can be
> > found in the following techniques:
> >
> > - Providing definitions for abbreviations by using the abbr and
> > acronym elements
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H28
> >
> > - Providing link text that describes the purpose of a link for anchor
> > elements http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H30
> >
> > - Using definition lists
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H40
> >
> > - Using label elements to associate text labels with form controls
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H44
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/25/07, Paul Collins < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > > Thanks for your responses all.
> > >
> > > > Please note that the WCAG Samurai is in draft right now.
> > >
> > > Good point, I will wait to see what they recommend in the final draft.
> > >
> > > > Without some clarification of the specification itself, we'll continue
> > > > to have divergent opinions on the use of title. Until then, I'm going
> > > > to take a fairly conservative approach to their use.
> > >
> > > It would be great to get some examples from either the WCAG Samurai or
> > > the even the WAI themselves on when it is good and bad to use titles.
> > > In addition to this a list of how they behave when they are accessed
> > > not just by screen readers, but by other assistive software such as
> > > Zoom Text would be great to get one day.
> > >
> > > I think I will use them cautiously in the meantime also.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > > On 25/06/07, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > > > On 6/25/07, Paul Collins wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > After reading the WCAG1 errata by the WCAG Samurai recently, I came
> > > > > across this one which got my curiosity:
> > > >
> > > > Please note that the WCAG Samurai is in draft right now. The final
> > > > version is due to be released this week, so things may change. And
> > > > this is one of several points in the Samurai that is in conflict with
> > > > conventional accessibility recommendations.
> > > >
> > > > > I was always under the impression that the title attribute would not
> > > > > be read out by default using the bulk of screen readers and therefore
> > > > > it should not be used to convey vital information like a popup window
> > > > > about to occur.
> > > >
> > > > I agree. This really depends on how you interpret the words "advisory
> > > > information" from the HTML spec regarding title attribute. Joe and the
> > > > gang seem to interpret it to mean that it can contain more important
> > > > or even vital information. Most accessibility recommendations today
> > > > suggest limiting title to non-vital, supplementary information. Much
> > > > of this, however, arises from the fact that screen readers didn't have
> > > > an option for reading title until recently.
> > > >
> > > > > Can anyone give me their thoughts on the title attribute and how they are using
> > > > > it currently?
> > > >
> > > > I use it only for supplementary information. While screen readers
> > > > *may* read it, most will not. Ever. The title attribute is much abused
> > > > and I imagine most screen reader users would rather ignore the garbage
> > > > than catch the occasional tidbit of useful information they contain.
> > > >
> > > > Also, there is no method for keyboard only access to title information
> > > > for sighted keyboard users. This is entirely a user agent issue, but
> > > > is another check mark against using title for important information.
> > > >
> > > > > ZOOM TEXT
> > > > > However, if titles were now to
> > > > > be read out with screen reading software, this would become really
> > > > > annoying as it would be read out twice. EG:
> > > > >
> > > > > <h1 class="replace" title="This is a heading"><em></em>This is a heading</h1>
> > > >
> > > > Yes, it would be annoying. This example does seem to be contradictory
> > > > to the "advisory information" language of the spec. However, you could
> > > > certainly argue that "This is an important heading" would be advisory.
> > > >
> > > > Without some clarification of the specification itself, we'll continue
> > > > to have divergent opinions on the use of title. Until then, I'm going
> > > > to take a fairly conservative approach to their use.
> > > >
> > > > Jared Smith
> > > > WebAIM
> > > >

From: Wayne Dick
Date: Mon, Jun 25 2007 12:00PM
Subject: Re: The title attribute and screen readers
← Previous message | Next message →

I think there is a conflict of need
that cannot be satisfied with web
content. The fact is, title
information can be useful to people
with partial sight. The Title
tool-tip pop-up in Firefox is helpful
for focused items.

Web content isn't the place to control
this. Browsers and assistive
technologies need to give more choice
to users. This is a user agent
problem.

The CSU System web developers
discussed this a lot last year. There
really isn't a good answer. As a
partially sighted user, I could live
without titles, but I wouldn't like
it. My ADD friends don't like them.
I find them only mildly annoying when
I listen to text, but I'm not totally
dependent on listening. That could
make the redundancy ugly. So there is
a problem. I think you need to think
about which group of disabled users
will hurt less, but I wouldn't abandon
good HTML coding practice to satisfy
one group while I hurt another.

We should use Titles as the HTML
semantics prescribe. Screen Readers
and reading enhancement technologies
need to render good code in a way that
helps their user base. I think that
one is the real problem.



Wayne Dick PhD
Chair Computer Engineering and
Computer Science, CSU, Long Beach
Coordinator of Academic Technology
Accessibility, CSU System

From: Jared Smith
Date: Mon, Jun 25 2007 12:10PM
Subject: Re: The title attribute and screen readers
← Previous message | Next message →

On 6/25/07, Paul Collins < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I found it interesting here that the WCAG condone using the title to
> warn people about a popup window, even though user agents won't read
> it out by default.

It doesn't exactly say that. This is simply is an example of providing
supplementary information for a link that opens in a new window.
There's nothing that indicates that this is a sufficient method in and
of itself. For example, there may be an additional text cue about the
pop-up windows in addition to providing this information in title.
This is something that should be clarified in the example.

Most screen readers now indicate when new windows open. This does not
remove the need to identify that they will open, but it's important to
know that most screen reader users will be alerted when the window
does open.

> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H65
> "f no label is available, JAWS, Window-Eyes, and Home Page Reader
> speak the title attribute when the form control receives focus"
>
> Interesting that they only read the title if there is no label
> available. Good to know.

This is very useful for complex forms. However, we've found label to
be much better supported and it should be used when possible. The fact
that screen readers read title for unlabeled forms is mostly arbitrary
- it isn't recommended or required by any specification. Label on the
other hand, is clearly defined in its use.

> An interesting read. I guess the extra stuff I wanted to know was how
> assistive technologies other than screen readers react to the title

This is the real problem. There is no defined way in which they
*should* behave. And because title is entirely ignored by many user
agents, is not keyboard accessible, and is not read by most screen
readers, it would be wise to not use it for vital information, despite
what WCAG Samurai might recommend. Or perhaps the Samurai simply
deemed the new window information as NOT vital but supplementary
because it is typically obvious to sighted and screen reader users
that a new window has been opened after the fact.

Jared Smith
WebAIM

From: Paul Collins
Date: Mon, Jun 25 2007 12:40PM
Subject: Re: The title attribute and screen readers
← Previous message | Next message →

> Most screen readers now indicate when new windows open. This does not
> remove the need to identify that they will open, but it's important to
> know that most screen reader users will be alerted when the window
> does open.

Very good point. Perhaps you are right about the WCAG Samurai
considering it not vital to put it in the text then. Still, if you
were going to warn one group of users by putting it in the title,
perhaps we should warn everyone, but then it seems impossible to
please everyone :)

> > Interesting that they only read the title if there is no label
> > available. Good to know.
>
> This is very useful for complex forms. However, we've found label to
> be much better supported and it should be used when possible. The fact
> that screen readers read title for unlabeled forms is mostly arbitrary
> - it isn't recommended or required by any specification. Label on the
> other hand, is clearly defined in its use.

Right you are, just handy for when you would associate multiple fields
with one label, such as the example given for phone no, or date of
birth as another. You can't wrap a label around multiple fields of
course so it would be useful as a last resort.

Well, thanks for your help everyone.


On 25/06/07, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> On 6/25/07, Paul Collins < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > I found it interesting here that the WCAG condone using the title to
> > warn people about a popup window, even though user agents won't read
> > it out by default.
>
> It doesn't exactly say that. This is simply is an example of providing
> supplementary information for a link that opens in a new window.
> There's nothing that indicates that this is a sufficient method in and
> of itself. For example, there may be an additional text cue about the
> pop-up windows in addition to providing this information in title.
> This is something that should be clarified in the example.
>
> Most screen readers now indicate when new windows open. This does not
> remove the need to identify that they will open, but it's important to
> know that most screen reader users will be alerted when the window
> does open.
>
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H65
> > "f no label is available, JAWS, Window-Eyes, and Home Page Reader
> > speak the title attribute when the form control receives focus"
> >
> > Interesting that they only read the title if there is no label
> > available. Good to know.
>
> This is very useful for complex forms. However, we've found label to
> be much better supported and it should be used when possible. The fact
> that screen readers read title for unlabeled forms is mostly arbitrary
> - it isn't recommended or required by any specification. Label on the
> other hand, is clearly defined in its use.
>
> > An interesting read. I guess the extra stuff I wanted to know was how
> > assistive technologies other than screen readers react to the title
>
> This is the real problem. There is no defined way in which they
> *should* behave. And because title is entirely ignored by many user
> agents, is not keyboard accessible, and is not read by most screen
> readers, it would be wise to not use it for vital information, despite
> what WCAG Samurai might recommend. Or perhaps the Samurai simply
> deemed the new window information as NOT vital but supplementary
> because it is typically obvious to sighted and screen reader users
> that a new window has been opened after the fact.
>
> Jared Smith
> WebAIM
>

From: Moore, Michael
Date: Tue, Jun 26 2007 7:10AM
Subject: Re: The title attribute and screen readers
← Previous message | Next message →

Jared:

> Most screen readers now indicate when new windows open. This does not
> remove the need to identify that they will open, but it's important to

> know that most screen reader users will be alerted when the window
> does open.

Paul:

Very good point. Perhaps you are right about the WCAG Samurai
considering it not vital to put it in the text then. Still, if you were
going to warn one group of users by putting it in the title, perhaps we
should warn everyone, but then it seems impossible to please everyone :)

Mike:
There are a few groups, other than those who use screen readers, who may
benefit from providing some type of visible indication that the link
will open in a new window. People with certain congitive disibilities
may benefit, novice users may benefit, and people who are multitasking
may benefit. Basically, anyone who may caught by surprise when their
back button stops working. The Samurai do no attempt to address issues
for people with cognitive disabilities, or for those whose expertise or
for others for whom clearer expectations/explanations of site behavior
might be benificial. The following is a quote from the "Introduction to
WCAG Samurai Errata for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) 1.0"

<blockquote>
No new guidelines for cognitive disabilities: WCAG 1 and 2 are both
inadequate to address the needs of people with cognitive disabilities
like dyslexia (though that is only one of many such disabilities, which
often have conflicting needs). We couldn't bring ourselves to delete the
only guideline below Priority 3 that attempts to address cognitive
disabilities ("Use the clearest and simplest language"), but we also
haven't devised a full suite of new guidelines. Nobody else has, either;
it requires considerably more research and, importantly, user testing.
Nor do we trust much of what we've read from alleged experts in the
field. We are leaving WCAG 1 almost exactly as it is and, separately, we
require that compliance with WCAG+Samurai cannot be a claim of full
accessibility to people with cognitive disabilities.
</blockquote>

From: Spellman, Jeanne
Date: Wed, Jun 27 2007 11:30AM
Subject: Re: The title attribute and screen readers
← Previous message | Next message →

QUOTE
"Do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not change the
current window without informing the user. (Plain text is the
preferred method of informing the user. The title attribute on a
hyperlink a element can suffice.)"

I was always under the impression that the title attribute would not
be read out by default using the bulk of screen readers and therefore
it should not be used to convey vital information like a popup window
about to occur.

I've been doing some reading and this still seems to be the case, but
perhaps I am not looking at up-to date articles either? Can anyone
give me their thoughts on the title attribute and how they are using
it currently?
END QUOTE

You are correct. The title attribute of a link is not read, unless the
user sets an option in JAWS to read the title instead of the link text.
Since most people want to hear the link text, this is not an option that
is often set. In the user tests we have done, no JAWS user has had this
option set to read title text.

I was unimpressed with the Samurai errata. A quick read turned up
enough misinformation (the title attributes error you noted, the
assumption that layout tables are inaccessible) that I could not take it
seriously, and I found the self-righteous tone condescending and
unprofessional. The Samurai don't appear to have tested their theories
with an actual screen reader, let alone test with real users with
disabilities. They appear to be web standards fundamentalists using
accessibility to add legitimacy.

The WCAG process may be flawed, but it is better than this.

jeanne

From: Egan, Bim
Date: Fri, Jun 29 2007 3:10AM
Subject: Re: The title attribute and screen readers
← Previous message | No next message

Jeanne pointed out:

"The title attribute of a link is not read, unless the
user sets an option in JAWS to read the title instead of the link text.
Since most people want to hear the link text, this is not an option that
is often set. In the user tests we have done, no JAWS user has had this
option set to read title text."

Which is absolutely correct, in addition don't forget that screen reader
users aren't the only people who may be denied important information if
it is in the Title attribute.

The title "tooltip" appears only on mouse hover, there is no user
action (such as switching off images to reveal the ALT attribute), to
make this information visible.

So, among the people to add to the screen reader users we have:
* People with impaired mobility who navigate via the keyboard.
* Those with shaky hands who do use a mouse, as the "tooltip"
disappears instantly when the mouse moves off the link.
* Screen magnification users whose magnified viewport reveals so little
of the "tooltip" that they may only see "Opens in " or "(new win" ...
warnings shouldn't be something the user needs to guess at.
* People with Retinitis Pigmentosa (commonly called "Tunnel vision"),
who use their remaining vision, which is another very restricted
viewport, and may not even be vertically deep enough to include the
"tooltip".
* People with dyslexia, this might not apply to a new window warning,
which should be short, but the fact remains that the "tooltip"
disappears in five seconds, which may not be long enough for them to
read the message.

I've gone into more detail on the dangers of using the title attribute
in RNIB's WACblog at:
http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-
accessibility-title-attributes/

Bim