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Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)

From: Moore, Michael
Date: Wed, Jun 04 2008 7:30AM
Subject: Re: Foreign:Re: how to detect images having math expressions
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Steve Green wrote:

Of course pages should be created and maintained so that they are
accessible. I hope none of us would disagree with that. However, the
reality is that there are millions of websites that were not created or
maintained that way. As an independent testing company that does not
design or maintain websites, 100% of our clients have existing websites
that they wish to assess and improve. Few if any are in a position to do
a ground-up rebuild.

It is not helpful to say that an approach should not be considered just
because it is not 100% reliable. Nor is it helpful to state that sites
should be rebuilt or that every page should be tested. The question that
we and many other organisations face is how to make best use of the
available resources.

So I would be interested to know how you might approach the task of
assessing a 10,000 page website with a view to making the most
beneficial improvements within a budget and timescale that does not
allow all pages to be assessed. Or would you simply not undertake such a
task, and leave it to someone else to worry about.

Mike's response:

This is an issue that we are currently dealing with as well.

We attempt to prioritize things based upon the criticality of the page
or interface by asking ourselves a few questions.

1. Would someone be prevented from doing their job or from accessing
services if the page or application was not fully accessible?
2. Does an existing accessible process, or other accessible information
source exist?
3. How many potential consumers or staff members may be affected, and
what is the impact? For example, is this an application used by all
staff or only 3 people in one department? Is this information about a
program that serves thousands, or one that only serves a few? Is this
information about a program that specifically serves people with
disabilities?

After evaluating the page and finding compliance issues, we also
prioritize repairs based upon the severity of the failure and its impact
on users.

Mike

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Wed, Jun 04 2008 7:40AM
Subject: Re: how to detect images having math expressions
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Steve Green wrote:

> It is not helpful to say that an approach should not be considered
> just because it is not 100% reliable.

Did someone say so?

> Nor is it helpful to state that
> sites should be rebuilt or that every page should be tested.

Who said the latter?

I did say that testing could be used to demonstrate that a site should
be rebuilt. The results could prove that it is cheaper to rebuild it
than to fix and patch things.

> The question that we and many other organisations face is how to make
> best use of the available resources.

Don't we all?

> So I would be interested to know how you might approach the task of
> assessing a 10,000 page website with a view to making the most
> beneficial improvements within a budget and timescale that does not
> allow all pages to be assessed.

I wouldn't, except if I were first asked to evaluate the site to see
whether it would, exceptionally, be a candidate for such processing,
given its purpose and orientation and specific accessibility aspects.

It would be waste of time and money to analyze an arbitrary site
according to some large set of evaluation criteria using automatic and
semiautomatic tools. This would just end up with some project that tries
to fix some automatically detectable problems (or "problems" - the tools
tend to detect problems that aren't) if some fixes can be found for
them.

For example, for pages with lots of math expressions (the original topic
of this discussion started), the _real_ accessibility problem is math is
so difficult to most people, and it's even more difficult when presented
poorly. Alt texts are relevant and must be required, but the textual
replacement problem is largely unsolvable in practice. Moreover, the
great majority of people have problems with the math itself. (This
includes, but is not limited to, explaining the meanings of symbols
used.) This shouldn't be difficult to understand (even to a
mathematician), if you just think about it, instead scanning through
endless lists of guidelines and techniques and checkpoints.

Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

From: John E. Brandt
Date: Wed, Jun 04 2008 12:30PM
Subject: Math Expressions
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Apart from the whole issue of markup and accessibility, it is my
understanding that math expressions, or equations generally present unique
challenges to people with blindness or visual impairments in that they (the
equations) are hard to represent in Braille as well as in digital formats. I
have been working with folks from our state's agency that provides books and
services to the blind and visually impaired and this is apparently a very
common and long-term complaint.

There is a student in one of our state colleges who is a Math/Science major
and apparently quite a bright individual with aspirations for advanced
graduate training in this field. Trying to get advanced calculus texts for
him in Braille, or any format, is apparently nearly impossible and, if
available, extremely expensive since much of the translation needs to be
done by hand and with special tools.

I only share this because the issue of accessible markup is but a relatively
recent subset of a larger issue that has been around for some time.

Perhaps there are others on this list to have more experience with folks
with blindness and visual impairments who can contribute more on this.

John E. Brandt
Augusta, Maine USA
www.jebswebs.com

From: Giorgio Brajnik
Date: Wed, Jun 04 2008 12:40PM
Subject: Re: Math Expressions
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On Wednesday 04 June 2008 08:18:11 pm John E. Brandt wrote:
> Apart from the whole issue of markup and accessibility, it is my
> understanding that math expressions, or equations generally present unique
> challenges to people with blindness or visual impairments in that they (the
> equations) are hard to represent in Braille as well as in digital formats.
> I have been working with folks from our state's agency that provides books
> and services to the blind and visually impaired and this is apparently a
> very common and long-term complaint.
>
> There is a student in one of our state colleges who is a Math/Science major
> and apparently quite a bright individual with aspirations for advanced
> graduate training in this field. Trying to get advanced calculus texts for
> him in Braille, or any format, is apparently nearly impossible and, if
> available, extremely expensive since much of the translation needs to be
> done by hand and with special tools.
>
> I only share this because the issue of accessible markup is but a
> relatively recent subset of a larger issue that has been around for some
> time.
>
> Perhaps there are others on this list to have more experience with folks
> with blindness and visual impairments who can contribute more on this.
>

It's my understanding, and limited experience as well, that several
mathematicians that are blind know pretty well how to read and write in
TeX/LaTeX, which is a very detailed typesetting language suitable for math.
This does not solve all the problems, but is a possibility for somebody.


Giorgio Brajnik

From: Aaron Cannon
Date: Wed, Jun 04 2008 1:20PM
Subject: Re: Math Expressions
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>>> Giorgio Brajnik = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 6/4/2008 1:32 PM >>


It's my understanding, and limited experience as well, that several
mathematicians that are blind know pretty well how to read and write in
TeX/LaTeX, which is a very detailed typesetting language suitable for math.
This does not solve all the problems, but is a possibility for somebody.



I can verify that this is in fact true. I am totally blind and used a combination of LaTex, Braille Nemmeth Code, and human readers to get to where I am now (two classes away from a B.S. in Mathematics).

I was often able to get my textbooks directly from the author or publisher in LaTex format.

Aaron

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From: Sean Keegan
Date: Wed, Jun 04 2008 1:40PM
Subject: Re: how to detect images having math expressions
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> It's about a guideline "All img elements with images
> containing math expressions have equivalent MathML markup."
> That's rather absurd, since adding MathML is of very little
> practical value (for accessibility or otherwise) and takes
> quite a lot of work if we count the initial labor needed to
> dig into MathML, and why shouldn't we?

Asking for clarification - is it the addition of MathML to a Web page that
is of little practical value (for accessibility purposes) or is it the
addition of the MathML equivalent to an image when such image already has
suitable alternate text?

Take care,
Sean

From: Steve Noble
Date: Wed, Jun 04 2008 1:50PM
Subject: Re: Math Expressions
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This is a common problem, to which some states are promoting more
systemic change. From the K-12 perspective, the "braille bills" that
many states passed beginning in the 1990s began requiring textbook
publishers to submit electronic files in order to expedite the creation
of braille materials, but they often exempted math in the past. Of
course, now the whole K-12 process has been redesigned at the federal
end due to the NIMAS requirements that were passed in IDEA 2004. Under
NIMAS, math materials may be submitted by publishers using MathML. In
fact, the state of Kentucky has recently announced that the state will
give preferential procurement to math textbook publishers that submit
NIMAS-compliant files using MathML:
http://www.dessci.com/en/solutions/access/news.htm

On the postsecondary side, there is no national legislation comparable
to the K-12 NIMAS requirements. However, some institutions are doing
their own creation of MathML textbook materials using MathML for the
math expressions, and then burning the files on a CD to use with
synthetic speech applications. The ATPC of the California Community
College has a very streamlined program developed to do this. I was told
recently that they turned around a 500+ page statistics book with lots
of math in only 3 days. That wasn't braille, of course, but it is an
example of what one system is doing to get accessible math content to
their students. Here's an article describing their process:
http://www.washington.edu/doit/Stem/articles?400

Also, for an example of online math textbooks created with MathML, here
is a list of a few resources:
http://www.dessci.com/en/reference/webmath/resources.htm

That of course doesn't solve your immediate problem, but it shows you
what some others are doing.

Steve Noble
Director of Accessibility Policy
Design Science, Inc.
E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Phone: (502) 969-3088
Math Accessibility Resources http://www.dessci.com/accessibility
Making Math Accessible Blog: http://accessiblemath.dessci.com/

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Wed, Jun 04 2008 2:00PM
Subject: Re: how to detect images having math expressions
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Sean Keegan wrote:

> Asking for clarification - is it the addition of MathML to a Web page
> that is of little practical value (for accessibility purposes) or is
> it the addition of the MathML equivalent to an image when such image
> already has suitable alternate text?

Both, because there is so little to be gained in practice and so much
work to be done, and time is better spent in doing other things. But it
is outright wrong to add MathML _without_ first making sure that the
alternate text is adequate.

Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

From: Wayne Dick
Date: Wed, Jun 04 2008 3:00PM
Subject: Re: Math Expressions
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Dear Friends,

I am a partially sighted since birth and my PhD is in Mathematics. I
have tried everything to make reading Mathematics easier. Tex and LaTex
were the hope for a long time, but using these systems always involved
morphing systems target for small visual media into a new and badly
supported format.


LaTex is presentation oriented which means semantics must be deduced
from presentation. It is a type setting system and as such is visually
oriented. Material written in LaTex cannot always be translated to the
intended mathematics in a deterministic way. This then reduces the
reader to listening to a linearized sequence of the symbols and then
re-assembling the two dimensional math object back in their mind. It is
very tricky and not many people can do it professionally.

Content MathML does not have this problem.

Many mathematicians with print disabilities know LaTex and Tex because
until recently they were the only game in town. For some who have
learned these systems change would be difficult. The difference between
Content MathML and LaTex / Tex is that any expression in content MathML
could be translated to LaTex or Tex with 100% accuracy using a program.
The inverse operation is not always computable with a program.

So, if you have content MathML you can always write an XSL sheet to turn
it into LaTex / Tex. So, current LaTex / Tex users will never get
lost. But you cannot do a similar operation with 100% confident for
LaTex / Tex to content MathML.


Why build information loss into your electronic files for storing
electronic mathematics. For standardization use MathML then convert to
other formats as needed.

Wayne Dick PhD.
Department of Computer Engineering and Computer Science
California State University, Long Beach
Long Beach, CA 90815

From: Sean Keegan
Date: Thu, Jun 05 2008 5:30PM
Subject: Re: how to detect images having math expressions
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>> Asking for clarification - is it the addition of MathML
>> to a Web page that is of little practical value (for
>> accessibility purposes) or is it the addition of the
>> MathML equivalent to an image when such image
>> already has suitable alternate text?

> Both, because there is so little to be gained in practice
> and so much work to be done, and time is better spent in
> doing other things.

Perhaps it all depends on context as I have to disagree that there is so
little to be gained in practice. Within the environment I reside, it is
already a challenge for many to add an appropriate text description to
images of a math equations and allowing assistive technologies to read
MathML-based content is an improvement on the status quo.

There are several assistive technologies that can utilize MathML-based
Web content to communicate the math information to the user. Is it
great? No, but such functionality is better than no access at all.
Additionally, the benefits for having the capability to transform said
content into alternate formats, IMO, outweighs the consequences.

I do fully agree with you that there is much work to be done; may it be
done sooner than later.

Take care,
Sean