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Thread: Separating links
Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)
From: Philip Pawley
Date: Sun, Mar 24 2002 1:28PM
Subject: Separating links
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The WAI Guidelines say:-
"10.5 Until user agents (including assistive technologies) render adjacent links distinctly, include non-link, printable characters (surrounded by spaces) between adjacent links".
Can you give me examples of user agents and/or assistive technologies that mis-behave in this way so that I can see the problem for myself?
Thanks,
--
Philip Pawley
Liverpool, UK
http://www.alexanderworks.org/
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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Sun, Mar 24 2002 11:36PM
Subject: RE: Separating links
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JAWS: When JAWS reads links, it prefaces the text with the work "link".
For example, if the link text says "products", JAWS will say "link
products". For the most part, there is no confusion here. There may be
confusion, however, with the text following the link. For example, if
the text right after the products link says "All around the world,
people are wondering about...", then the user may not know whether the
link is "products" or "products all around the world".
Home Page Reader: The default mode in Home Page Reader is to change the
type of voice. A male-sounding voice reads the plain text and a
female-sounding voice reads links. This is a more direct example of the
question you asked. In Home Page Reader, two adjacent links will be read
consecutively without a distinguishing sound in between them. For
example, two links "products" and "help" might be misunderstood to be
one links "products help". However, there are options in Home Page
Reader that allow the user to differentiate between links. HPR can be
set to play a sound (e.g. a chime) or say a word (e.g. "link") before
the link. There are ways of configuring the program so that there is no
confusion, but the default settings permit this kind of confusion.
Now you may be wondering what to do about this issue. In a list of
links, you can place a character such as a vertical bar ( | ) in between
links. You could also place periods, hyphens, or any other character
there, but vertical bars are more common. Placing a line break ( <br> )
or a new paragraph ( <p> ) does not meet the guideline because there are
no printable characters in between links that way.
And another important question: Is it necessary to do this nowadays? In
lists of links I think it is usually a good idea, but perhaps not as
necessary as it once may have been. I would personally put this
guideline in the "recommended" category, but not necessarily in the
"required" category, because modern screen readers have the potential to
handle links well, even if they are not set up to do so in the default
configuration.
P.S. Bulleted lists are often read as if there is no break between list
items, which can be confusing in Home Page Reader's default
configuration (though, again, this can be modified). I really wish that
screen readers read lists better, but they don't. They could say
"bullet", "list item" or something, but they don't (in the default
configuration). I personally would not recommend putting vertical bars
or other characters at the end of bulleted list items--though it may
help some screen reader users--because that seems to me to be going a
bit too far. Still, I bring it up because that is one situation in which
screen readers could be of more help to the user, but they aren't. It's
a situation to at least be aware of.
Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu
From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Mon, Mar 25 2002 7:40AM
Subject: Re: Separating links
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All the major screen readers have fixed this problem in their recent releases.
Jon
At 08:28 PM 3/24/2002 +0000, Philip Pawley wrote:
>The WAI Guidelines say:-
>
>"10.5 Until user agents (including assistive technologies) render adjacent
>links distinctly, include non-link, printable characters (surrounded by
>spaces) between adjacent links".
>
>Can you give me examples of user agents and/or assistive technologies that
>mis-behave in this way so that I can see the problem for myself?
>
>Thanks,
>--
>Philip Pawley
>Liverpool, UK
>http://www.alexanderworks.org/
>--
>
>
>
>
>
>----
>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
>visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
MC-574
College of Applied Life Studies
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL 61820
Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248
E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
WWW: http://www.w3.org/wai/ua
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From: Leo Smith
Date: Tue, Mar 26 2002 7:18AM
Subject: RE: Separating links
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I thought the WAI guidelines were referring to "side-by-side" links,
not links on separate lines in a list. I took "adjacent" to mean side-
by-side in the guideline, and the wording of the guideline seems to
suggest that to me with the "surrounded by spaces" part:
"....include non-link, printable characters
(surrounded by spaces)"
Thus:
link 1 | link 2 | link 3 | link 4
Am I wrong in this assumption?
Leo.
On 24 Mar 2002, at 23:36, Paul Bohman wrote:
> Now you may be wondering what to do about this issue. In a list of
> links, you can place a character such as a vertical bar ( | ) in
> between links. You could also place periods, hyphens, or any other
> character there, but vertical bars are more common. Placing a line
> break ( <br> ) or a new paragraph ( <p> ) does not meet the guideline
> because there are no printable characters in between links that way.
Leo Smith
Web Designer/Developer
USM Office of Publications and Marketing
University of Southern Maine
207-780-4774
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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Tue, Mar 26 2002 11:34AM
Subject: RE: Separating links
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You are not wrong in your assumption, but I wanted to point out that
line breaks <br> and paragraph breaks <p> have no printable characters
in-between them, and have the potential to cause the same confusion as
two links next to each other on the same line. Screen readers often do
not slow down or pause in between lines at all. I have to sometimes
listen carefully in these situations, to avoid confusing myself, but
this is not an issue most of the time.
As has been mentioned, most screen reader users are able to tell the
difference between links, and modern screen readers are configurable to
differentiate between links even if they are adjacent. This is mainly an
issue with older screen readers.
Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu
From: Philip Pawley
Date: Tue, Mar 26 2002 12:06PM
Subject: RE: Separating links
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Thank you for your detailed response. I have a few questions as a result of trying these things out on JAWS 4.0 and Home Page Reader 3.02.
>Home Page Reader: The default mode in Home Page Reader is to change the
>type of voice. A male-sounding voice reads the plain text and a
>female-sounding voice reads links. This is a more direct example of the
>question you asked. In Home Page Reader, two adjacent links will be read
>consecutively without a distinguishing sound in between them. For
>example, two links "products" and "help" might be misunderstood to be
>one links "products help". However, there are options in Home Page
>Reader that allow the user to differentiate between links. HPR can be
>set to play a sound (e.g. a chime) or say a word (e.g. "link") before
>the link. There are ways of configuring the program so that there is no
>confusion, but the default settings permit this kind of confusion.
In Home Page Reader 3.02:-
If there is a <p>, <br> or <div> in between, I hear no problem. No there is between adjacent links but who needs one anyway? There is a clear pause in between one link and the next.
I really can't see any need for any printable characters or the ensuing change of voice. These people are *blind*, not stupid. Also, we mustn't forget that blind people are more attentive to vocal nuances than we who rely so heavily on our eyes. So if I have no problem here, a blind person certainly isn't going to either.
Even with just a space between links, the problem is not *that bad*: although there is no pause in this case, there is still a voice inflection that tells the attentive listener that a new link is being read.
>Now you may be wondering what to do about this issue. In a list of
>links, you can place a character such as a vertical bar ( | ) in between
>links. You could also place periods, hyphens, or any other character
>there, but vertical bars are more common. Placing a line break ( <br> )
>or a new paragraph ( <p> ) does not meet the guideline because there are
>no printable characters in between links that way.
In view of the above, are we really talking about an older version of Home Page Reader? How old?
>And another important question: Is it necessary to do this nowadays? In
>lists of links I think it is usually a good idea, but perhaps not as
>necessary as it once may have been. I would personally put this
>guideline in the "recommended" category, but not necessarily in the
>"required" category, because modern screen readers have the potential to
>handle links well, even if they are not set up to do so in the default
>configuration.
I feel I need more information about older versions (or other programs that demonstrate these problems) before being able to make a judgement. Certainly, I see *no* problem with the most recent version of Home Page Reader.
>P.S. Bulleted lists are often read as if there is no break between list
>items, which can be confusing in Home Page Reader's default
>configuration (though, again, this can be modified). I really wish that
>screen readers read lists better, but they don't. They could say
>"bullet", "list item" or something, but they don't (in the default
>configuration). I personally would not recommend putting vertical bars
>or other characters at the end of bulleted list items--though it may
>help some screen reader users--because that seems to me to be going a
>bit too far. Still, I bring it up because that is one situation in which
>screen readers could be of more help to the user, but they aren't. It's
>a situation to at least be aware of.
Again, in version 3.02, I hear a clear pause.
<Quoted out of your original order>
>JAWS: When JAWS reads links, it prefaces the text with the work "link".
>For example, if the link text says "products", JAWS will say "link
>products". For the most part, there is no confusion here. There may be
>confusion, however, with the text following the link. For example, if
>the text right after the products link says "All around the world,
>people are wondering about...", then the user may not know whether the
>link is "products" or "products all around the world".
Again, I can see no problem with JAWS 4.0 in this connection. There is a clear pause between the link and the following text - as well as inflectional cues. I can't see how a blind person *could* be confused by this presentation.
To sum up:-
1. It seems to me that, the way the most recent versions of HPR and JAWS treat these situations, hearing "vertical bar" or some such in between links is just a nuisance: I can't see (or hear) that it serves any useful purpose whatever. I am open to being convinced otherwise, however.
2. Since I don't see any of these problems in the most recent versions, I assume we are talking about older versions.
3. Was it the previous versions that were at fault or is it an older problem? How far back are we looking?
Thanks,
--
Philip Pawley
Liverpool, UK
http://www.alexanderworks.org/
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From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Tue, Mar 26 2002 1:29PM
Subject: RE: Separating links
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Warning... grumpy rant follows (sensitive readers should hit delete now)
<RANT>
>>These people are *blind*, not stupid.
and
>> I would personally put this
>> guideline in the "recommended" category, but not necessarily in the
>> "required" category, because modern screen readers have the potential to
>> handle links well, even if they are not set up to do so in the default
>> configuration.
HEY EVERYBODY - ACCESSIBILITY IS NOT JUST ABOUT BLIND USERS!!!!
Consider the following:
<.a href="here.html"><.img src="button1.gif" alt="Here"></a><.a
href="there.html"><.img src="button2.gif" alt="There"></a><.a
href="anywhere.html"><.img src="button3.gif" alt="Anywhere"></a>
Using a "user agent" which does not support images (or has images disabled
for whatever reason), you would get the following:
HereThereAnywhere
Looking and feeling as one big link instead of 3 separate links. Users with
cognitive disabilities may not grasp that there are 3 links there (heck you
probably wouldn't either at first glance).
And if the Alt Text was "shorter" (MeMyselfI) the links would be extremely
hard for users with mobility impairments to access.
Separating the links with non-link text then is crucial for these users. In
the case above, I would probably consider using an image map instead of the
3 separate button images, but that's not the point. The point is that when
creating your sites, we as developers must always think about the bigger
picture. Lately, the discussion threads I see seem to focus almost
exclusively on JAWS and IMB HPR, two fine products from companies who seem
to be serious about listening to feedback and correcting/improving their
software. But as developers we need to keep our eyes on the ball (the
bigger picture) and not get sidetracked by any particular "user agent".
>> 1. It seems to me that, the way the most recent versions of HPR
>> and JAWS treat these situations, hearing "vertical bar" or some
>> such in between links is just a nuisance: I can't see (or hear)
>> that it serves any useful purpose whatever. I am open to being
>> convinced otherwise, however.
How about because taking a stance like that is the 2002 equivalent of the
"Best Viewed in <browser of choice>" nonsense of the 90's? I would suggest
that backward compatibility and an acknowledgement that there are more than
two adaptive technology solutions available to the end user is required.
The W3C lists over 35 different "user agents (browsers)" created for or
include enhancements for the disabled at:
http://www.w3.org/WAI/References/Browsing
Just because the most recent versions of these software tools no longer
exhibit "problems" to the multitude of new sighted users who have recently
installed these softwares for "testing purposes" does not remove the fact
that before Accessibility became the hot topic it is today, disabled users
(many of whom may be on fixed or restricted budgets) were using earlier
versions of the software minus the improved behaviour. An associate of mine
has been using JAWS 3.x for some time now (daily!)... he hopes to get Jaws 4
with his new computer later this year, but he's saving his scheckles like
everybody else does; he doesn't have the luxury of writing it off as a
business expense. I would suspect that the large majority of the intended
audience are in a similar situation.
</RANT>
JF
>
From: Philip Pawley
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 2:49PM
Subject: RE: Separating links
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>Warning... grumpy rant follows (sensitive readers should hit delete now)
Keep you hair on John! ;-)
Yes, I agree with everything you say. Only, you were reading me out of context.
My original post in this thread was:-
-----------------------------------------
>The WAI Guidelines say:-
>
>"10.5 Until user agents (including assistive technologies) render adjacent links distinctly, include non-link, printable characters (surrounded by spaces) between adjacent links".
>
>Can you give me examples of user agents and/or assistive technologies that mis-behave in this way so that I can see the problem for myself?
-----------------------------------------
The problem that I was grappling with in the post you replied to was that Paul Bohman mentioned JAWS and HPR in his reply and I could find no sign of a problem in the latest version of these (which is all I presently have access to).
<<<So, please, Paul and, indeed, everyone>>>
Do you mean earlier incarnations of these programs, Paul? (Presumably the answer is yes). If yes, then which versions and precisely how do they slip up and in what circumstances? In particular, I most need to know about this kind of column of text links:
<.div><.a href="a.html">Link A</a></div>
<.div><.a href="b.html">Link B</a></div>
<.div><.a href="c.html">Link C</a></div>
<.div><.a href="d.html">Link D</a></div>
1. Exactly what programs and which versions mishandle this?
2. Exactly what happens in these cases?
(I can't see how anyone can make meaningful choices in the absence of sufficiently well-defined information).
Thanks and all the best,
--
Philip Pawley
Liverpool, UK
http://www.alexanderworks.org/
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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 4:22PM
Subject: RE: Separating links
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Rather than trying to explain this in an email format alone, I created a
test page at http://www.webaim.org/paul/test/screen-reader-link-test. I
included some notes and observations. I tested the page with JAWS 3.5 (I
will test it with more recent versions later) and Home Page Reader 3.0.
I have not yet tested it with Window Eyes or any other product.
I purposefully created some situations that are potentially problematic
for some screen readers. I would be very interested in having other
people test this page with their screen readers and post their
observations also.
After people have taken a look at it and posted their observations, I'll
write a summary email.
Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu
Philip Pawley wrote:
<<<So, please, Paul and, indeed, everyone>>>
Do you mean earlier incarnations of these programs, Paul? (Presumably
the answer is yes). If yes, then which versions and precisely how do
they slip up and in what circumstances? In particular, I most need to
know about this kind of column of text links:
<.div><.a href="a.html">Link A</a></div>
<.div><.a href="b.html">Link B</a></div>
<.div><.a href="c.html">Link C</a></div>
<.div><.a href="d.html">Link D</a></div>
1. Exactly what programs and which versions mishandle this?
2. Exactly what happens in these cases?
(I can't see how anyone can make meaningful choices in the absence of
sufficiently well-defined information).
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From: Holly Marie
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 5:37PM
Subject: Re: Separating links
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From: "Paul Bohman"
| Rather than trying to explain this in an email format alone, I created
a
| test page at http://www.webaim.org/paul/test/screen-reader-link-test.
I
| included some notes and observations. I tested the page with JAWS 3.5
(I
| will test it with more recent versions later) and Home Page Reader
3.0.
| I have not yet tested it with Window Eyes or any other product.
|
| I purposefully created some situations that are potentially
problematic
| for some screen readers. I would be very interested in having other
| people test this page with their screen readers and post their
| observations also.
| After people have taken a look at it and posted their observations,
I'll
| write a summary email.
Paul, this has me wondering.
[1] is it better to put links in as list items. With or without bullets?
Will there be any better separation? How are middots or bars perceived
or handled by listening users? What makes more sense to users that may
not be using devices that support different sounds or pauses or "link"
before each link? Can list items be displayed inline and not break to
the next with CSS? I have not tried this yet.
[2]How is the Acronym tag handled by readers?
<acronym title="Web Accessibliity Initiative">WAI</a> I see that Mozilla
and NN6x put an informational question mark cursor and arrow, while the
hover will pop up a tool tip with the expansion for visual users. I
believe that NN also puts a faint line under the Acronym. Are all the
readers giving the expansions on the acronyms or would it be best to
write any sentence, like this ?
Visit the Web Accessibility Initiative[WAI] pages for more information
and tips.
holly
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From: Philip Pawley
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 8:19PM
Subject: RE: Separating links
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>Rather than trying to explain this in an email format alone, I created a
>test page at http://www.webaim.org/paul/test/screen-reader-link-test. I
>included some notes and observations. I tested the page with JAWS 3.5 (I
>will test it with more recent versions later) and Home Page Reader 3.0.
>I have not yet tested it with Window Eyes or any other product.
Thanks for putting up the page, Paul.
I see what you were getting at very clearly.
Both JAWS (I'm using 4.0) and HPR 3.0 do seem to read links very differently according to context. Where they form a sentence they are indeed run together as a sentence. Where they are not (as would usually be the case) they are well separated. That's why I never heard the problems you mentioned when I tried JAWS and HPR on my site.
Very clever programming work there. I think I would consider it a feature rather than a bug. Seeing just how clever it is, I feel I can forgive a few blunders here and there. I definitely prefer HPR though: JAWS, even when slowed down, never pauses for breath! It makes everything much more difficult to understand.
Speaking for myself, now that the mystery (of what you were getting at) is cleared up, I don't feel any need to dwell on these matters any further.
What I would still like to know is whether the problems mentioned in WAI guideline 10.5 appear in a more substantial manner in older versions of the software. Given the cost, the older versions will surely still be used by many (maybe most) users.
Thanks and all the best,
--
Philip Pawley
Liverpool, UK
http://www.alexanderworks.org/
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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 11:21PM
Subject: RE: Separating links
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>>What I would still like to know is whether the problems mentioned in
WAI guideline 10.5 appear in a more substantial manner in older versions
of the software.
I have to admit that every screen reader that I've ever used or heard
has *NOT* had major difficulties with links--just the subtle ones that I
pointed out in my test file.
>>Given the cost, the older versions will surely still be used by many
(maybe most) users.
This is probably true, although I have never personally met anyone using
a screen reader that had major problems in this area.
One thing that screen readers offer to users is the ability to listen to
a list of links alone, without the surrounding text. This means that,
even if the links run together in the context of the document, the user
can extract the links and listen to each one separately. All the screen
readers I've used have had this ability. I don't know how far you have
to go back before this functionality is lost. Anyone else?
Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu
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From: iris
Date: Thu, Mar 28 2002 7:37AM
Subject: RE: Separating links - wemedia browser
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--- Paul Bohman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Rather than trying to explain this in an email
> format alone, I created a
> test page at
>
http://www.webaim.org/paul/test/screen-reader-link-test.
>
i downloaded Wemedia Talking Browser recently to try
it out (it's free). not sure what to make of it. it
separated the links on the above test page just fine
and doesn't have a problem with bullet lists either
but i found something really annoying: it doesn't
intonate a pause at the end of header tags, makes
header and first sentence of following paragraph one
sentence.
that can't be right. haven't found any settings yet.
doesn't look like that can be changed.
actually it's completely inconsistent. on another
page i tested it did better on the headers and worse
on the lists. has anybody else tried this browser?
i'm confused.
iris
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