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Number of posts in this thread: 32 (In chronological order)
From: Jeremy Merritt
Date: Jan 22, 2010 1:18PM
Subject: accessible rotating image scripts?
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Hi all,
Does anyone utilize any scripts for displaying a series of automatically refreshing images in an accessible format?
This may be a long shot, but ideally, I am looking for a way to cycle through a selection of images automatically, and display associated text (i.e. a quote or a caption) for each photo. There would need to be a way to (at the very least) pause the rotating images to accommodate those with visual/cognitive disabilities.
I welcome any pointers/suggestions
Jeremy Merritt
Coordinator - Web Services
University Technology
Western Illinois University
88 Horrabin Hall
309/298-1287
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Jan 22, 2010 2:30PM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
Jeremy Merritt wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Does anyone utilize any scripts for displaying a series of automatically refreshing images in an accessible format?
>
> This may be a long shot, but ideally, I am looking for a way to cycle through a selection of images automatically, and display associated text (i.e. a quote or a caption) for each photo. There would need to be a way to (at the very least) pause the rotating images to accommodate those with visual/cognitive disabilities.
>
> I welcome any pointers/suggestions
>
That is terribly easy to build.
I've had a demo in the 6th chapter of my book:
http://beginningjavascript.com/Chapter6/exampleAutoSlideShow.html
I can extend that to show a caption below.
From: Geof Collis
Date: Jan 22, 2010 2:45PM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
That is cool but I'm not fussy on the list, as I tab back and forth I
have to listen to the "list of 1 items" every time, would be less
verbose if I just got the alt text.
cheers
Geof
At 04:29 PM 1/22/2010, you wrote:
>Jeremy Merritt wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Does anyone utilize any scripts for displaying a series of
> automatically refreshing images in an accessible format?
> >
> > This may be a long shot, but ideally, I am looking for a way to
> cycle through a selection of images automatically, and display
> associated text (i.e. a quote or a caption) for each photo. There
> would need to be a way to (at the very least) pause the rotating
> images to accommodate those with visual/cognitive disabilities.
> >
> > I welcome any pointers/suggestions
> >
>That is terribly easy to build.
>
>I've had a demo in the 6th chapter of my book:
>
>http://beginningjavascript.com/Chapter6/exampleAutoSlideShow.html
>
>I can extend that to show a caption below.
>
>
>
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Jan 22, 2010 3:06PM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
Geof Collis wrote:
> That is cool but I'm not fussy on the list, as I tab back and forth I
> have to listen to the "list of 1 items" every time, would be less
> verbose if I just got the alt text.
>
> cheers
Cause needs testing, that. This is interesting cause every time you mark
up a list of images semantically as a list you get this feedback from
screen reader users. Screen readers should be clever enough not to write
out lists of one item as a list.
From: Geof Collis
Date: Jan 22, 2010 3:54PM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
Who said screen readers were clever?
Since they're aren't so smart then perhaps the person designing
should be more clever than a screen reader and not use a list, when
clearly 1 item does not constitute a list?
cheers
Geof
At 05:06 PM 1/22/2010, you wrote:
>Geof Collis wrote:
> > That is cool but I'm not fussy on the list, as I tab back and forth I
> > have to listen to the "list of 1 items" every time, would be less
> > verbose if I just got the alt text.
> >
> > cheers
>Cause needs testing, that. This is interesting cause every time you mark
>up a list of images semantically as a list you get this feedback from
>screen reader users. Screen readers should be clever enough not to write
>out lists of one item as a list.
>
>
From: Al Sparber
Date: Jan 22, 2010 4:27PM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
Screen readers are as smart as the persons who programmed them are. And I
agree wholeheartedly that a list of 1 is as much a list as a party of 1 is a
party. But the bottom line is that is that the biggest impediment to
accessibility is the quality and intelligence of the programs written to
help disabled people, such as Jaws, Window Eyes, et al. These companies are
the ones that primarily need to be held accountable. As for Christian's
example, it is very nice, your complaint notwithstanding, but not very
practical unless the images are kept very small in size and number.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Geof Collis" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 5:52 PM
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] accessible rotating image scripts?
> Who said screen readers were clever?
>
> Since they're aren't so smart then perhaps the person designing
> should be more clever than a screen reader and not use a list, when
> clearly 1 item does not constitute a list?
From: Geof Collis
Date: Jan 22, 2010 4:33PM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Christian
What would have made this even better would be to lose the list and
have it grab the screen readers focus every time an image changed so
that we wouldn't have to use the tab key and move back and forth to
read the alt text. That would be truly accessible.
cheers
Geof
At 04:29 PM 1/22/2010, you wrote:
>Jeremy Merritt wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Does anyone utilize any scripts for displaying a series of
> automatically refreshing images in an accessible format?
> >
> > This may be a long shot, but ideally, I am looking for a way to
> cycle through a selection of images automatically, and display
> associated text (i.e. a quote or a caption) for each photo. There
> would need to be a way to (at the very least) pause the rotating
> images to accommodate those with visual/cognitive disabilities.
> >
> > I welcome any pointers/suggestions
> >
>That is terribly easy to build.
>
>I've had a demo in the 6th chapter of my book:
>
>http://beginningjavascript.com/Chapter6/exampleAutoSlideShow.html
>
>I can extend that to show a caption below.
>
>
>
From: Geof Collis
Date: Jan 22, 2010 4:51PM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Al
Absolutely they are accountable and with Christians' profile telling
me the shortcomings would be better served by contacting screen
reader vendors and letting them know, I'm just the messenger who has
to put up with it.
cheers
Geof
At 06:25 PM 1/22/2010, you wrote:
>Screen readers are as smart as the persons who programmed them are. And I
>agree wholeheartedly that a list of 1 is as much a list as a party of 1 is a
>party. But the bottom line is that is that the biggest impediment to
>accessibility is the quality and intelligence of the programs written to
>help disabled people, such as Jaws, Window Eyes, et al. These companies are
>the ones that primarily need to be held accountable. As for Christian's
>example, it is very nice, your complaint notwithstanding, but not very
>practical unless the images are kept very small in size and number.
>
>--
>Al Sparber - PVII
>http://www.projectseven.com
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>From: "Geof Collis" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 5:52 PM
>To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>Subject: Re: [WebAIM] accessible rotating image scripts?
>
> > Who said screen readers were clever?
> >
> > Since they're aren't so smart then perhaps the person designing
> > should be more clever than a screen reader and not use a list, when
> > clearly 1 item does not constitute a list?
>
>
>
From: Keith Parks
Date: Jan 22, 2010 5:24PM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
On Jan 22, 2010, at 3:25 PM, Al Sparber wrote:
> And I
> agree wholeheartedly that a list of 1 is as much a list as a party
> of 1 is a
> party.
Tangential to the topic I know, but I have to disagree with the idea
that a list with one item on it is not properly a list.
Think of it in a different context, say a listing of employees by
department. Each department is a Header of some level, and under each
header is a <ul> list of names. If one department only has one
employee, it seems entirely proper to mark the name up as a list.
After all, when I go to the grocery store to but just one thing, I
*still* make a shopping list with that one item on it.
(Of course, that may be a memory issue more than a semantic one. ;-)
******************************
Keith Parks
Graphic Designer/Web Designer
Student Affairs Communications Services
San Diego State University
San Diego, CA 92182-7444
(619) 594-1046
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications
http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
----------------------------------------------------------
Yes We Can!*
*should not be interpreted to mean that we necessarily will
From: Geof Collis
Date: Jan 22, 2010 5:45PM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Keith
What a waste of paper. :O)
Should a single email address be put in a list then? :O)
cheers
Geof
At 07:24 PM 1/22/2010, you wrote:
>On Jan 22, 2010, at 3:25 PM, Al Sparber wrote:
>
> > And I
> > agree wholeheartedly that a list of 1 is as much a list as a party
> > of 1 is a
> > party.
>
>Tangential to the topic I know, but I have to disagree with the idea
>that a list with one item on it is not properly a list.
>
>Think of it in a different context, say a listing of employees by
>department. Each department is a Header of some level, and under each
>header is a <ul> list of names. If one department only has one
>employee, it seems entirely proper to mark the name up as a list.
>
>After all, when I go to the grocery store to but just one thing, I
>*still* make a shopping list with that one item on it.
>
>(Of course, that may be a memory issue more than a semantic one. ;-)
>
>******************************
>Keith Parks
>Graphic Designer/Web Designer
>Student Affairs Communications Services
>San Diego State University
>San Diego, CA 92182-7444
>(619) 594-1046
>mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications
>
>http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
>----------------------------------------------------------
>
>Yes We Can!*
>
>*should not be interpreted to mean that we necessarily will
>
>
From: Al Sparber
Date: Jan 22, 2010 6:12PM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
From: "Keith Parks" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> On Jan 22, 2010, at 3:25 PM, Al Sparber wrote:
>
>> And I
>> agree wholeheartedly that a list of 1 is as much a list as a party
>> of 1 is a
>> party.
>
> Tangential to the topic I know, but I have to disagree with the idea
> that a list with one item on it is not properly a list.
Hi Keith,
I didn't actually say it wasn't a list - proper or otherwise. I simply
equated it to a one-person party :-)
What I agree with Geof, and many other disabled people I know, is the folly
of it :-)
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets
http://www.projectseven.com/go/hgm
The Ultimate Web 2.0 Carousel
From: Al Sparber
Date: Jan 22, 2010 7:27PM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
I understand and sympathize with your position. But web developers,
especially ones who must make attractive and interactive designs to satisfy
clients and customers, are being dumped on, too. The entire situation could
be mitigated if only screen readers were held to a standard that made sense.
It could be as ridiculously simple as honoring a CSS media type.
Instead, developers must deal with dumbfounding technologies such as ARIA.
Of course, there are folks who think this is the right approach and for them
I have simply no answer.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Geof Collis" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Hi Al
>
> Absolutely they are accountable and with Christians' profile telling
> me the shortcomings would be better served by contacting screen
> reader vendors and letting them know, I'm just the messenger who has
> to put up with it.
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Jan 23, 2010 9:33AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
Geof Collis wrote:
> Hi Al
>
> Absolutely they are accountable and with Christians' profile telling
> me the shortcomings would be better served by contacting screen
> reader vendors and letting them know, I'm just the messenger who has
> to put up with it.
>
> cheers
If you want a _really_ accessible version try the YUI carousel with the
WAI-ARIA plugin:
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/carousel/carousel-ariaplugin_source.html
Fully customisable, open source and free to use. Also loads content on
demand:
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/carousel/
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Jan 23, 2010 9:36AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
Al Sparber wrote:
> I understand and sympathize with your position. But web developers,
> especially ones who must make attractive and interactive designs to satisfy
> clients and customers, are being dumped on, too. The entire situation could
> be mitigated if only screen readers were held to a standard that made sense.
> It could be as ridiculously simple as honoring a CSS media type.
>
> Instead, developers must deal with dumbfounding technologies such as ARIA.
> Of course, there are folks who think this is the right approach and for them
> I have simply no answer.
>
ARIA is the answer. With ARIA we can define what is a carousel rather
than having to hack it together.
From: Al Sparber
Date: Jan 23, 2010 10:06AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
That's even worse :-)
I'm not going to convince you of anything and that's certainly not my goal.
And I certainly am not so presumptuous as to think that in this industry
anything is "THE ANSWER". But my humble sense of logic tells me (and perhaps
only me) that if I were blind and wanted to propose the ideal "carousel"
here is how I would tell the designer to do it:
1. Make it so that all the links and controls that sighted people see are
invisible to my screen reader.
2. Simply make it so that my screen reader reads the content linearly and
naturally as if the sliding panels were, to a sighted person, ordinary
blocks of content displayed on the page.
That's it.
Of course, the screen reader makers and the standards makers have to be on
the same page and share the same logic. Sadly, though, our industry leaders
don't often allow their logic to be simple as it takes away the fun of
developing and promoting more complex and technology-laden solutions - the
kind that lead to book deals and speaking gigs :-)
--
Al Sparber
From: "Christian Heilmann" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> ARIA is the answer. With ARIA we can define what is a carousel rather
> than having to hack it together.
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Jan 23, 2010 10:30AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
Al Sparber wrote:
> That's even worse :-)
>
> I'm not going to convince you of anything and that's certainly not my goal.
> And I certainly am not so presumptuous as to think that in this industry
> anything is "THE ANSWER". But my humble sense of logic tells me (and perhaps
> only me) that if I were blind and wanted to propose the ideal "carousel"
> here is how I would tell the designer to do it:
>
> 1. Make it so that all the links and controls that sighted people see are
> invisible to my screen reader.
> 2. Simply make it so that my screen reader reads the content linearly and
> naturally as if the sliding panels were, to a sighted person, ordinary
> blocks of content displayed on the page.
>
>
> That's it.
>
> Of course, the screen reader makers and the standards makers have to be on
> the same page and share the same logic. Sadly, though, our industry leaders
> don't often allow their logic to be simple as it takes away the fun of
> developing and promoting more complex and technology-laden solutions - the
> kind that lead to book deals and speaking gigs :-)
>
>
If that was a personal attack then you have never seen any of my
presentations or read one of my books.
On the subject matter, however, I just published an article on
smashingmagazine on how to test JavaScript solutions for basic
usability, accessibility and maintenance issues:
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2010/01/21/find-the-right-javascript-solution-with-a-7-step-test/
When you look around you you will find that far too many solutions are
built not even caring about sensible markup - accessibility is really
low on the radar as a shiny image rotator is easier to sell than to make
people care about universal access.
From: Al Sparber
Date: Jan 23, 2010 10:48AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
Calm down. I'm not attacking you. I'm trying to speak past you to people
like Geof. There have been far too many debates on this list - and I've done
my share of that in the past - but I'm just trying to make a small,
unobtrusive, low-bandwidth logical case for common sense. It has nothing to
do with you, your books, your gigs, or my products. Different developers
take different approaches in different sets of circumstances. Just like
everything out in the wild with the PVII name on it isn't perfect, the same
can be said for things with the Heilmann or Yahoo label. We live in an
imperfect world, work in a very imperfect business, and try to do the best
we can as we move forward.
The point is simple. The solution can and should be simple. That's it. If
you leave it to web standards theorists and practitioners to come up with
programmed or specification-based solutions, on their own, the result will
always be complex. It must be complex and it will continue to be complex
unless the assistive technology makers join the discussion in places like
this list. I want to hear their reasoning.
I have attempted to talk to the Jaws people about making a greater effort to
dialog with the standards people about simple solutions, but they always
seem to turn a deaf ear.
--
Al Sparber
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Christian Heilmann" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Al Sparber wrote:
>> That's even worse :-)
>>
>> I'm not going to convince you of anything and that's certainly not my
>> goal.
>> And I certainly am not so presumptuous as to think that in this industry
>> anything is "THE ANSWER". But my humble sense of logic tells me (and
>> perhaps
>> only me) that if I were blind and wanted to propose the ideal "carousel"
>> here is how I would tell the designer to do it:
>>
>> 1. Make it so that all the links and controls that sighted people see are
>> invisible to my screen reader.
>> 2. Simply make it so that my screen reader reads the content linearly and
>> naturally as if the sliding panels were, to a sighted person, ordinary
>> blocks of content displayed on the page.
>>
>>
>> That's it.
>>
>> Of course, the screen reader makers and the standards makers have to be
>> on
>> the same page and share the same logic. Sadly, though, our industry
>> leaders
>> don't often allow their logic to be simple as it takes away the fun of
>> developing and promoting more complex and technology-laden solutions -
>> the
>> kind that lead to book deals and speaking gigs :-)
>>
>>
> If that was a personal attack then you have never seen any of my
> presentations or read one of my books.
>
> On the subject matter, however, I just published an article on
> smashingmagazine on how to test JavaScript solutions for basic
> usability, accessibility and maintenance issues:
> http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2010/01/21/find-the-right-javascript-solution-with-a-7-step-test/
>
> When you look around you you will find that far too many solutions are
> built not even caring about sensible markup - accessibility is really
> low on the radar as a shiny image rotator is easier to sell than to make
> people care about universal access.
From: Jared Smith
Date: Jan 23, 2010 10:57AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Al Sparber wrote:
> Of course, the screen reader makers and the standards makers have to be on
> the same page and share the same logic.
And this is *PRECISELY* the reason why ARIA is a great solution, maybe
even *THE* solution. ARIA provides meaning and semantics and structure
to screen readers in ways that are not at all possible using standard
HTML (at least until HTML 5, partially... maybe). There's no way in
HTML to say, "Hey, this is the navigation", but ARIA provides a
standard mechanism for content creators to specify the navigation and
all major screen readers to understand and utilize it. In HTML, you
can't say, "This is a carousel. Hey screen reader, treat it as such
and provide standard mechanisms for controlling it." With ARIA, you
can.
I can assure you that a fully functional, interactive carousel that
has full assistive technology support and semantics via ARIA is much
"better" (not to mention much easier to create using libraries) than a
hacked up list of static panels that have no semantic structure and
that are marked up to be hidden visually so that screen readers read
them linearly (which is entirely different than a true carousel
everyone else gets, no?).
I'm quite surprised at the animosity toward ARIA. Have you read the
spec and played around with the examples? It's not perfect, but
support for it is quite good and getting better. It provides standard
ways of providing accessibility that will never be possible with HTML
and scripting alone no matter how much you hack at it.
> If you leave it to web standards theorists and practitioners to come up with
> programmed or specification-based solutions, on their own, the result will
> always be complex.
Yet another strong argument for ARIA.
> It must be complex and it will continue to be complex
> unless the assistive technology makers join the discussion in places like
> this list.
I agree that vendors need to be MUCH more involved. However, have you
seen the level of current support for ARIA? Vendors are involved there
and implementation is quite good, and ARIA isn't even a finalized spec
yet. I still curse and wail at JAWS and others for lack of support for
very basic accessibility in some places, but this doesn't mean we
should ignore the areas where they are actually making progress - and
ARIA is definitely an area with great promise.
Jared Smith
WebAIM
From: Geof Collis
Date: Jan 23, 2010 11:00AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
That's cool I used to do that in Flash when I was able to see.
Didn't take a long look but I assume I can download it from the page?
cheers
Geof
At 11:33 AM 1/23/2010, you wrote:
>Geof Collis wrote:
> > Hi Al
> >
> > Absolutely they are accountable and with Christians' profile telling
> > me the shortcomings would be better served by contacting screen
> > reader vendors and letting them know, I'm just the messenger who has
> > to put up with it.
> >
> > cheers
>If you want a _really_ accessible version try the YUI carousel with the
>WAI-ARIA plugin:
>
>http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/carousel/carousel-ariaplugin_source.html
>
>Fully customisable, open source and free to use. Also loads content on
>demand:
>
>http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/carousel/
>
>
>
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Jan 23, 2010 11:24AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
Geof Collis wrote:
> That's cool I used to do that in Flash when I was able to see.
>
> Didn't take a long look but I assume I can download it from the page?
>
Yeah, all of YUI is available for download. The whole pack contains all
the code, the documentation and examples.
http://yuilibrary.com/downloads/yui2/yui_2.8.0r4.zip
From: Al Sparber
Date: Jan 23, 2010 11:33AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Jared,
Excuse the top-posting but my blind testers have problems following inline
discussions.
Yes, I have read and understand the ARIA specification and we have played
with it and used it in test scenarios. It makes sense for Ajax, which we do
not embrace at all, and it makes sense as a compensation for the lack of a
better solution. So maybe I can distill this debate down to its essentials,
at least as far as my perspective goes.
First, let's forget about bad scripts that make liberal use of display:
none, for example. Let's forget about generalist script libraries versus
dedicated scripts, too. Let's focus on a hypothetical scenario for a
carousel, which is something this discussion has focused on.
Let's say I'm blind. I go to this page:
http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/horizontal-glider/testing/accessibility/basic.htm
This is a staged example of a carousel that is set to run automatically. It
has no controls. It simply cycles through 3 content panels and then
reverses.
If I'm blind, I really have no interest in what this is. That is, whether
it's a widget. I am only concerned with being able to read the content.
Now, this particular script has the capability of adding all sorts of user
controls and pagination. I have not added them for this test. But if
assistive readers were smart enough (or considerate enough) to support
targeted CSS, then it would be ridiculously simple to add all the controls I
wanted to while ensuring that blind people would not be subjected to them.
All they get is the content.
If that's not more practical and straightforward than Aria to you, then
there is no point in discussing this any further. Seems a no-brainer to me,
as well as to every blind person I have talked to.
The bottom line?
Aria where it is needed, simple logic for everything else :-)
The problem?
Aria exists today (though browser support is an issue). A simple way to feed
selective CSS to Assistive readers does not exist - but boy, if assistive
technology developers and accessibility experts don't get behind such a
simple solution, I question this industry's priorities.
--
Al Sparber
From: "Jared Smith" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> And this is *PRECISELY* the reason why ARIA is a great solution, maybe
> even *THE* solution. ARIA provides meaning and semantics and structure
> to screen readers in ways that are not at all possible using standard
> HTML (at least until HTML 5, partially... maybe). There's no way in
> HTML to say, "Hey, this is the navigation", but ARIA provides a
> standard mechanism for content creators to specify the navigation and
> all major screen readers to understand and utilize it. In HTML, you
> can't say, "This is a carousel. Hey screen reader, treat it as such
> and provide standard mechanisms for controlling it." With ARIA, you
> can.
>
> I can assure you that a fully functional, interactive carousel that
> has full assistive technology support and semantics via ARIA is much
> "better" (not to mention much easier to create using libraries) than a
> hacked up list of static panels that have no semantic structure and
> that are marked up to be hidden visually so that screen readers read
> them linearly (which is entirely different than a true carousel
> everyone else gets, no?).
>
> I'm quite surprised at the animosity toward ARIA. Have you read the
> spec and played around with the examples? It's not perfect, but
> support for it is quite good and getting better. It provides standard
> ways of providing accessibility that will never be possible with HTML
> and scripting alone no matter how much you hack at it.
>
>
> Yet another strong argument for ARIA.
>
> I agree that vendors need to be MUCH more involved. However, have you
> seen the level of current support for ARIA? Vendors are involved there
> and implementation is quite good, and ARIA isn't even a finalized spec
> yet. I still curse and wail at JAWS and others for lack of support for
> very basic accessibility in some places, but this doesn't mean we
> should ignore the areas where they are actually making progress - and
> ARIA is definitely an area with great promise.
From: Geof Collis
Date: Jan 23, 2010 11:36AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
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Excellent thanks! Could have used it on a site I just did
http://www.envisioningnewmeanings.ca/
cheers
Geof
At 01:22 PM 1/23/2010, you wrote:
>Geof Collis wrote:
> > That's cool I used to do that in Flash when I was able to see.
> >
> > Didn't take a long look but I assume I can download it from the page?
> >
>Yeah, all of YUI is available for download. The whole pack contains all
>the code, the documentation and examples.
>
>http://yuilibrary.com/downloads/yui2/yui_2.8.0r4.zip
>
>
>
From: Geof Collis
Date: Jan 23, 2010 11:42AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
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Hi Al
Wow, I like that better, I found if I let JAWS speak continuously
from the start it read all of the panels cycling.
cheers
Geof
From: Al Sparber
Date: Jan 23, 2010 12:00PM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
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Glad it worked for you. I think Christian and Jared also have good points.
Perhaps we can play connect the dots to join our points in a potential
uber-solution :-)
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Geof Collis" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Hi Al
>
> Wow, I like that better, I found if I let JAWS speak continuously
> from the start it read all of the panels cycling.
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Jan 23, 2010 11:48PM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
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I think there are some amazing generalisations about ARIA being thrown
out here. Check out Todd Kloots' work with ARIA in the videos here:
http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/11/23/video-kloots-yuiconf2009-a11y/
My stance is that yes you can write bespoke solutions that target screen
readers and make it amazing using all kind of JavaScript tricks but I am
tired of fixing things on demand. ARIA provides us with capabilities
that browsers do not have yet, is supported by modern, free browsers and
great modern, open source assistive technologies like NVDA.
If the spokespeople of accessibility advocated those instead of trying
to cater for Jaws and IE6 all the time we'd stand a chance to make even
Google Docs and Gmail accessible. If we keep banging on about bad
outdated environments and don't even tell blind users that there are
alternatives we shouldn't be surprised if makers of web apps do not care.
As Todd says - disabled users have been conditioned to expect bad
usability and are not likely to be aware of the opportunities we have
these days (for example with proper keyboard support using Jaws) - it is
up to us to make them aware that there are already improvements. If
people for example skip Flash without even checking if it is keyboard
enabled cause they've been fooled too many times our good fight is a
lost cause.
A browser in 2010 should have a tab control, a tree widget and allow me
to pick a date in a form without me needing to write an own calendar.
Browser vendors support ARIA for that. If Jaws doesn't then maybe they
are too complacent with their monopoly in a market that *needs*
assistive technology. Microsoft was sued for making it impossibly hard
for their competition. Maybe it is time for this attitude to reach the
accessibility world, too.
From: Peter Krantz
Date: Jan 24, 2010 4:21AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
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Hear, hear. Sometimes I feel that coding for a specific browser has
reached the next level where people are coding for a specific
assistive device.
The coding-for-a-browser age is coming to an end we need to prevent
the same approach for assistive devices. Users of assistive devices
need to put more pressure on the manufacturers and I would like to see
more initiatives from the open source community to increase
competition.
Already way too much time is spent on testing with specific versions
of assistive devices in some of the projects I have looked into.
Regards,
Peter
On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 07:46, Christian Heilmann
>
> […] isn't then maybe they
> are too complacent with their monopoly in a market that *needs*
> assistive technology. Microsoft was sued for making it impossibly hard
> for their competition. Maybe it is time for this attitude to reach the
> accessibility world, too.
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Jan 24, 2010 4:33AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
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Peter Krantz wrote:
> Hear, hear. Sometimes I feel that coding for a specific browser has
> reached the next level where people are coding for a specific
> assistive device.
>
> The coding-for-a-browser age is coming to an end we need to prevent
> the same approach for assistive devices. Users of assistive devices
> need to put more pressure on the manufacturers and I would like to see
> more initiatives from the open source community to increase
> competition.
>
http://www.nvda-project.org/ :)
From: Peter Krantz
Date: Jan 24, 2010 4:51AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
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On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 12:32, Christian Heilmann >>
> http://www.nvda-project.org/ :)
Absolutely, but maybe there could be more? And maybe someone could
package it and market it to the people who need it?
Here in Sweden the government will pay for assistive tools if you
qualify for them. I have asked them why they haven't added NVDA to the
list of available tools, but they really don't know hoe to deal with
it. "Is there a hidden agenda? It can't be free."
I almost thought about creating a paper box for NVDA myself and make
the installation process a bit more complicated and then sell it at
half the cost of the other tools to make them understand…
Regards,
Peter
From: Geof Collis
Date: Jan 24, 2010 6:45AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
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Perhaps it is the people who know what they are
talking about who should be contacting the
manufacturers not the end user who for the most
part doesn't have a clue why a web page sucks, just that it does
cheers
Geof
At 06:20 AM 1/24/2010, you wrote:
>Hear, hear. Sometimes I feel that coding for a specific browser has
>reached the next level where people are coding for a specific
>assistive device.
>
>The coding-for-a-browser age is coming to an end we need to prevent
>the same approach for assistive devices. Users of assistive devices
>need to put more pressure on the manufacturers and I would like to see
>more initiatives from the open source community to increase
>competition.
>
>Already way too much time is spent on testing with specific versions
>of assistive devices in some of the projects I have looked into.
>
>Regards,
>
>Peter
>
>
>
>On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 07:46, Christian Heilmann
> >
> > [
] isn't then maybe they
> > are too complacent with their monopoly in a market that *needs*
> > assistive technology. Microsoft was sued for making it impossibly hard
> > for their competition. Maybe it is time for this attitude to reach the
> > accessibility world, too.
>
From: Evans, Donald (Contractor)
Date: Jan 25, 2010 8:45AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
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I'd be interested in what the group thinks of this approach:
http://www.donaldevans.com/guide/bestpractices/carousel.html
From: Geof Collis
Date: Jan 25, 2010 9:15AM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
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Hi Donald
At first I was a bit confused but it seems pretty good, because I
have a little vision left I'd get a better feel if there were
pictures so that I could see the screen changing.
cheers
Geof
At 10:45 AM 1/25/2010, you wrote:
>I'd be interested in what the group thinks of this approach:
>http://www.donaldevans.com/guide/bestpractices/carousel.html
>
>
>
From: Keith Parks
Date: Jan 25, 2010 5:12PM
Subject: Re: accessible rotating image scripts?
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On Jan 25, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Evans, Donald (Contractor) wrote:
> I'd be interested in what the group thinks of this approach:
> http://www.donaldevans.com/guide/bestpractices/carousel.html
>
One thing that comes to mind is that with javascript disabled the user
can't get to the hidden content.
******************************
Keith Parks
Graphic Designer/Web Designer
Student Affairs Communications Services
San Diego State University
San Diego, CA 92182-7444
(619) 594-1046
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications
http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
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