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Thread: Use of Headings
Number of posts in this thread: 5 (In chronological order)
From: Langum, Michael J
Date: Tue, Jul 27 2010 10:12AM
Subject: Use of Headings
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Does the use of table structures for layout trouble screen reader users?
We have an author who is really fond of using layout tables to provide a visual structure to her documents. She writes in Word, and then we convert to PDF for publication on our website. I have attached an extracted sample page.
I'm seeking advice on the best way to work with the Acrobat tag tree in this document.
Logically, the tags should be : <h1>, <h2>, followed by several <p> and an <L>. Then another <h2>, followed by several <p> and an <l> tags.
But because she used a layout table, these tags end up nested in various table tags.
Should I modify the physical structure to reflect the logical structure of the document? Or leave the various table tags in the document?
-- Mike
From: Duff Johnson
Date: Tue, Jul 27 2010 10:24AM
Subject: Re: Use of Headings
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> Does the use of table structures for layout trouble screen reader users?
The fact that table-tools were used to author the document should not be taken to imply that tables should be represented in the document's tags. Semantics should always trump the machine output.
> I'm seeking advice on the best way to work with the Acrobat tag tree in this document.
> Logically, the tags should be : <h1>, <h2>, followed by several <p> and an <L>. Then another
> <h2>, followed by several <p> and an <l> tags.
Then tag it that way, replacing the "detritus" table tags left over from the PDF's creation.
> But because she used a layout table, these tags end up nested in various table tags.
Yes... so the tags in the PDF as-created are incorrect and must be edited in Acrobat.
> Should I modify the physical structure to reflect the logical structure of the document? Or
> leave the various table tags in the document?
Modify the logical structure in the PDF to match the semantics of the document.
HTH!
Duff Johnson
Appligent Document Solutions
http://www.appligent.com
From: Karlen Communications
Date: Tue, Jul 27 2010 10:45AM
Subject: Re: Use of Headings
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I completely agree!
One of the problems with using tables for layout is that they are often not
retained as inserted. For example a document author might start off with a 6
column table and then adjust the number of columns to fit the content...not
data table content...and what ends up happening is that part of the table
used for layout is converted to a data table inappropriately while other
pieces of the table aren't.
What this means for someone using a screen reader is that content that
doesn't seem to fit a table structure is plunked into one. This affects
comprehension and readability and is very confusing.
Cheers, Karen
From: David Farough
Date: Tue, Jul 27 2010 12:27PM
Subject: Re: Use of Headings
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I think that the easiest way to deal with this would be to modify the
physical structure of the source document and then convert to PDF
afterwards.
You could spend a lot of time modifying the tags tree and still have
problems. On the webaim site, there is an article which discusses the
problems that Jaws has in determining whether a table is for layout or
data purposes.
Check out the post from the blog for December 2 entitled "Jaws Ate My
Tables"
http://webaim.org/blog/page/3/
David Farough
Application Accessibility Coordinator/coordonateur de l'accessibilité
Information Technology Services Directorate /
Direction des services d'information technologiques
Public Service Commission / Commission de la fonction publique
Email / Courriel: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Tel. / Tél: (613) 992-2779
>>> "Langum, Michael J" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 12:08 PM Tuesday, July
27, 2010 >>>
Does the use of table structures for layout trouble screen reader
users?
We have an author who is really fond of using layout tables to provide
a visual structure to her documents. She writes in Word, and then we
convert to PDF for publication on our website. I have attached an
extracted sample page.
I'm seeking advice on the best way to work with the Acrobat tag tree in
this document.
Logically, the tags should be : <h1>, <h2>, followed by several <p> and
an <L>. Then another <h2>, followed by several <p> and an <l> tags.
But because she used a layout table, these tags end up nested in
various table tags.
Should I modify the physical structure to reflect the logical structure
of the document? Or leave the various table tags in the document?
-- Mike
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From: Karlen Communications
Date: Tue, Jul 27 2010 1:12PM
Subject: Re: Use of Headings
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It's not always that easy. If the client wants the document "not to change" one hair, there are structural elements that would best be implemented in the PDF Tags Tree. It is a balance of cost: which is going to take the most time and resources and is this Word document a template to be used again or a one-off. I've worked on Word documents, repaired them, given the client instructions on how to not break the structure and have to do the same repairs for the next iteration of the document because of a new hire, new document author, and the list goes on.
It's sometimes just faster and more efficient to make the changes to the Tags Tree in the PDF document.
Cheers, Karen