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Thread: Font size
Number of posts in this thread: 14 (In chronological order)
From: Glenda Watson Hyatt
Date: Thu, May 30 2002 12:27PM
Subject: Font size
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Hi all,
This morning I received this question about font sizing:
"W3C Priority 2 guidelines suggest that all fonts should be sized relatively
to enable scaling. Would you consider allowing some text to scale and others
not to be acceptable? Specifically, if we've used Text navigation links, and
for the sake of controlling space, fixed that size and allowed general body
text to scale relatively?"
My initial response is:
"Individuals use a wide variety of viewing devices, from very large monitors
to tiny screens on handheld devices, and the content should flow into the
appropriate size. This does not happen when absolute position and length
units are used. Users need to be able to change the size of text to
compensate for the resolution or size of their device or because of a visual
impairment."
Is there anything I'm missing here? Personally, I'm not sure why a designer
would pick and choose when to apply this guideline (WCAG 1.0 3.4). Isn't it
best to make all font relative?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Cheers,
Glenda
*********
Glenda Watson Hyatt
Soaring Eagle Communications
"Creating freedom and power through accessible communications"
E Mail: mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Website: http://www.eaglecom.bc.ca
Want to know how to make your website accessible to more people?
Subscribe to our FREE newsletter by emailing
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
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From: kynn
Date: Thu, Jun 13 2002 10:55AM
Subject: Re: Font size
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Glenda was asked:
> "W3C Priority 2 guidelines suggest that all fonts should be sized relatively
> to enable scaling. Would you consider allowing some text to scale and others
> not to be acceptable? Specifically, if we've used Text navigation links, and
> for the sake of controlling space, fixed that size and allowed general body
> text to scale relatively?"
The answer is: "Nope! That's not acceptable!"
> My initial response is:
> "Individuals use a wide variety of viewing devices, from very large monitors
> to tiny screens on handheld devices, and the content should flow into the
> appropriate size. This does not happen when absolute position and length
> units are used. Users need to be able to change the size of text to
> compensate for the resolution or size of their device or because of a visual
> impairment."
Your initial response is right on. Furthermore, depending on the mode in
which the user is accessing the page -- "navigating to content", "viewing
content", or a combination of the two -- the navigation text could in fact
be much more important than the body text!
This is one reason why setting the font size of navigation to "small"
or "smaller" or "-1" is less than optimal, even though people do it all
the time. Sometimes what the user NEEDS to see the most is the navigation
bar. Sometimes it's the content. In neither case should one of these be
deliberately set to be harder to read.
> Is there anything I'm missing here? Personally, I'm not sure why a designer
> would pick and choose when to apply this guideline (WCAG 1.0 3.4). Isn't it
> best to make all font relative?
You are correct!
> Looking forward to hearing from you.
> Cheers,
> Glenda
> *********
> Glenda Watson Hyatt
> Soaring Eagle Communications
> "Creating freedom and power through accessible communications"
Oh, Glenda, I forgot to mention before -- you're doing some great work on
web accessibility training materials and in spreading "the word", and I
thank you for that!
--Kynn
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From: Joel Ward
Date: Thu, May 30 2002 12:44PM
Subject: Re: Font size
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Designers are often worried that their layouts will fall apart if users make
their fonts larger or smaller, their screens bigger or smaller, etc. This
is especially an issue with layouts that use fixed-width tables and/or
layouts that are not very flexible. It harks back to the philosophies of
print design, and the designer's desire to control the user's experience. I
won't get into the philosophy, but I have had some heated (and productive)
discussions with designers about how the web should or shouldn't be
flexible, and if the end-user deserves to modify the page to suit their
needs.
So, designers may choose to use absolute font sizes for navigation and other
"fixed" elements so the user doesn't "mess up" their design. Often whole
pages will use absolute sizes, so users can't make ANY changes.
Of course, this goes against accessibility and flexibility.
There are two extremes: 1) Making pages accessible and flexible, giving up
"owning" control of the design and layout, allowing the layout to be
changed, and 2) Making pages 100% inflexible in order to control 100% of the
user experience.
I feel we can find a happy middle ground (weighted more toward #1, of
course).
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From: Joel Ward
Date: Thu, May 30 2002 12:48PM
Subject: Re: Font size
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One more thing:
I think we have some work ahead of us to convince all designers that
relative sizing is the ONLY choice and that it can be used successfully
along with good, attractive design.
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From: Michael Goddard
Date: Thu, May 30 2002 1:30PM
Subject: Re: Font size
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It is not the designers you need to convince but the companies and clients
to whom hire the designers.
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Ward" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: Font size
> One more thing:
>
> I think we have some work ahead of us to convince all designers that
> relative sizing is the ONLY choice and that it can be used successfully
> along with good, attractive design.
>
>
> ----
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> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
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From: Joel Ward
Date: Thu, May 30 2002 1:49PM
Subject: Re: Font size
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Michael Goddard wrote:
>
> It is not the designers you need to convince but the companies and clients
> to whom hire the designers.
I agree. It would be very productive to start from the top down.
But the designers are also key. Even if the companies and clients know
what's right, and push the right thing, and tell the designers what they
want, designers can always ignore their pleadings (aka requirements).
Whether it be right or wrong, moral or immoral. It can, will, and does
happen.
Much like we feel what we are doing here is right, designers (and pretty
much any human being) also feel righteous about their own opinions.
Sometimes that overrides the public interest.
I guess my point is that everyone needs to be convinced, from the top
down. And those at the top need to enforce their policies.
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From: Glenda Watson Hyatt
Date: Thu, May 30 2002 2:24PM
Subject: RE: Font size
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It would be ideal if accessibility was included in design courses. If
designers had that knowledge base when applying for jobs, what a great way
to differentiate themselves from other candidates, especially in the US and
other countries where web accessibility is now the law. IMHO.
Cheers,
Glenda
*********
Glenda Watson Hyatt
Soaring Eagle Communications
"Creating freedom and power through accessible communications"
E Mail: mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Website: http://www.eaglecom.bc.ca
Want to know how to make your website accessible to more people?
Subscribe to our FREE newsletter by emailing
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
*********
>
From: philip steven lanier
Date: Thu, May 30 2002 2:28PM
Subject: Re: Font size
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> It is not the designers you need to convince but the companies and clients
> to whom hire the designers.
Many of the clients I have worked for don't even know the difference
between fixed and relative font size. Even if companies/clients DO know
the difference and know which is better, they are unlikely to make such
specifications, unless they have a *very* specific contract. If they were
making such specifications, they would probably also be making tons of
other specifications such as: "Make sure that all images have ALT tags";
"Please use the <em> tag instead of the <i> tag"; "Remember that Internet
Explorer doesn't support layers like Netscape does"; etc.
Eventually, designers would cover their ears in annoyance and inform the
client that they DON'T need to be told how to do their job.
-Phil
>
> Michael
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joel Ward" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 2:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Font size
>
>
> > One more thing:
> >
> > I think we have some work ahead of us to convince all designers that
> > relative sizing is the ONLY choice and that it can be used successfully
> > along with good, attractive design.
> >
> >
> > ----
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ----
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> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
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From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Thu, May 30 2002 2:50PM
Subject: RE: Font size
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<snip>
> It is not the designers you need to convince but the companies and clients
> to whom hire the designers.
<snip>
> It harks back to the philosophies of
> print design, and the designer's desire to control the user's
> experience.
My mandate du jour is to try and eradicate the expression "publish your
web". This phrase runs rampant within the Canadian Federal Government (to
whom I do some consulting work for).
For one, a "web" is not, in and of itself, really a thing, except of course
at Microsoft. But even more important is the terminology of "publish".
Publish invokes thoughts of type setting, Pantone colours, 5 colour prints,
offset printing, and all of that great "stuff" of the publishing world. But
publishing is but one form of communication. Movies are produced, so too
are television and radio programs. Billboards are erected, music is both
recorded and published. And web sites (or web pages if you must) are
posted. Posted to a server where they are then retrieved (GET) by a web
browser. There is no publishing involved.
Now of course, it's a semantics game, but it underscores a fundamental point
and it also allows us, the converted, to expand upon the point that web
development IS NOT publishing, and that the rules and constraints between
print (fixed page sizes for example, or Pantone colours) and web development
are different, and must be treated as so. I reason that if we can stop them
thinking that it's publishing, we are on the way to making them understand
many of the issues we confront every day.
So I ask you all to take up the cause... eradicate the word publish from any
discussion of web site development. Make a conscious effort to avoid the
term, correct others when they use it, and maybe, just maybe, we'll get
through.
JF
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From: Michael Goddard
Date: Fri, May 31 2002 5:25AM
Subject: Re: Font size
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I agree wholeheartedly with you on this Glenda. I have taken many web
design and development classes back several years ago when the certification
thing was "the thing". Not one even remotely covered accessibility issues
or code compliancy for that matter.
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenda Watson Hyatt" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 4:20 PM
Subject: RE: Font size
> It would be ideal if accessibility was included in design courses. If
> designers had that knowledge base when applying for jobs, what a great way
> to differentiate themselves from other candidates, especially in the US
and
> other countries where web accessibility is now the law. IMHO.
>
> Cheers,
> Glenda
>
> *********
> Glenda Watson Hyatt
> Soaring Eagle Communications
> "Creating freedom and power through accessible communications"
> E Mail: mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Website: http://www.eaglecom.bc.ca
> Want to know how to make your website accessible to more people?
> Subscribe to our FREE newsletter by emailing
> mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> *********
>
>
>
> >
From: Glenda Watson Hyatt
Date: Fri, May 31 2002 3:06PM
Subject: RE: Font size, follow up question
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So, how does this work with text within graphics? If graphics are sized by
pixels, how can users control the size of the text?
Also, how would you respond to:
"I struggling with the balance between "control" and accessibility
especially
when we have design requirements that target 800x600 screens. So the
argument of tiny handhelds and very large screens seems to be exceptions
rather than the rule? I'd love to see some kind of zoom capability in
browsers, maybe IE/NS ver 9.4 ? ;)"
Personally, with the increase use of PDAs, I would think tiny screens are
becoming less and less the exception. Similarly, with an aging population
with failing eyesight, large screens are becoming more popular. Or, is my
rationale faulty somewhere? Wonder what the stats are here, regarding sales
of various monitor sizes?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Have a great weekend!
Cheers,
Glenda
*********
Glenda Watson Hyatt
Soaring Eagle Communications
"Creating freedom and power through accessible communications"
E Mail: mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Website: http://www.eaglecom.bc.ca
Want to know how to make your website accessible to more people?
Subscribe to our FREE newsletter by emailing
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
*********
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From: kynn
Date: Thu, Jun 13 2002 11:03AM
Subject: Re: Font size, follow up question
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Glenda wrote:
> So, how does this work with text within graphics? If graphics are sized by
> pixels, how can users control the size of the text?
Text within graphics is, obviously, bad. ;) Because you can't control
the size of the text.
> Also, how would you respond to:
> "I struggling with the balance between "control" and accessibility
> especially
> when we have design requirements that target 800x600 screens. So the
> argument of tiny handhelds and very large screens seems to be exceptions
> rather than the rule? I'd love to see some kind of zoom capability in
> browsers, maybe IE/NS ver 9.4 ? ;)"
Opera has had built-in "zoom" for years; it sounds like this controlling
designer doesn't know much about the field in which she works.
Design requirements that target 800x600 screens are faulty requirements
with the kind of thinking that has NEVER worked on the Web. However,
it is certainly possible to make a design that looks great on 800 by
600 application windows while still being accessible and usable your
audience.
> Personally, with the increase use of PDAs, I would think tiny screens are
> becoming less and less the exception. Similarly, with an aging population
> with failing eyesight, large screens are becoming more popular. Or, is my
> rationale faulty somewhere? Wonder what the stats are here, regarding sales
> of various monitor sizes?
Not sure. But note that monitor size (or resolution) is not equal to
application size! I can detect no faults in your rationale, by the way.
--Kynn
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From: Leo Smith
Date: Mon, Jun 03 2002 11:04AM
Subject: Re: Font size
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With regards to relative font sizes, I would recommend staying
away from em units (the WAI recommends using them:
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CSS-TECHS/#units)
Due to a bug in IE/PC, they can cause more accessibility
problems than they solve, from my experiences.
IE/PC appears to install with its font size setting to "smaller" or
"smallest" in some cases. If you use an em value less than about
0.95em, your copy will be unreadable by folks who have IE set to
"smaller" by default.
A setting of "medium" by default is the norm, but a noticeable
number of folks do seem to have installs that set themselves to
smaller or smallest by default, and from my experiences the
majority of users out there do _not_ know either that they can
change their browser's font size setting or how they can change it.
Therefore, you have a scenario whereby many users will simply
leave your site in disgust, finding it unreadable. I know because
this is exactly what happened when a site that I had been working
on was launched a few months ago.
The issue with em sizes and IE/PC seems to be that the
"gradiations of change" between smallest, smaller, medium, etc
font size settings are very large when em sizes are employed.
Percentage based font sizes do not seem to suffer the same
rendering issues. Alternatively, simply do not define font sizes at
all.
In terms of using pixels, most new releases of major browsers do
let you resize pixel based font sizes, IE/PC being the major
exception.
Leo.
Leo Smith
Web Designer/Developer
USM Office of Publications and Marketing
University of Southern Maine
207-780-4774
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From: Glenda Watson Hyatt
Date: Mon, Jun 03 2002 2:41PM
Subject: RE: Font size, follow up question
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> Glenda wrote:
> > So, how does this work with text within graphics? If graphics
> are sized by
> > pixels, how can users control the size of the text?
>
> Text within graphics is, obviously, bad. ;) Because you can't control
> the size of the text.
>
Kynn, what would you recommend to make buttons (graphics with text)
accessible to individuals with visual impairments who don't use screen
readers? Of course, there is the ALT tag that appears, but that isn't
zoomable, is it?
Cheers,
Glenda
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