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Thread: underline on links, from the blind's perspective

Number of posts in this thread: 12 (In chronological order)

From: Julius Charles Serrano
Date: Wed, May 23 2012 8:40PM
Subject: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
No previous message | Next message →

Hi everyone.

Generally, it is a good accessibility practice to have an underline on
each link.

Regarding this matter, I wanna ask, particularly the accessibility
advocates here who are blind, is there a way to verify (non-visually)
that the links on a page are indeed underlined?

I think for sighted accessibility advocates, this is not a problem. I
just wanna know if there is a way for blind advocates to verify that
links are underlined. Perhaps we can do this by looking at the code? Any
ideas?

I think being able to verify this is necessary because sometimes web
developers tend to remove the underlines for whatever reason.

Thanks everyone.

Julius

--
Julius Charles Serrano
Accessibility Specialist
Catalyst IT Ltd
http://www.catalyst.net.nz
Mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Phone: +64 (4) 803-2436

From: Jared Smith
Date: Wed, May 23 2012 9:23PM
Subject: Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
← Previous message | Next message →

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Julius Charles Serrano wrote:
> is there a way to verify (non-visually)
> that the links on a page are indeed underlined?

You can't easily tell from the markup alone, unless you check the CSS
to see if there's some style somewhere that might remove the
underline. One easy way would be to use Firebug in Firefox to analyze
the link and see if the computed text-decoration style is set to
either underline or none.

Jared

From: Hoger, Jodie
Date: Wed, May 23 2012 9:24PM
Subject: Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi there. I am new to the list and have been watching closely. I am not
techy in the slightest - smile but am totally blind and use a screen
reader (window eyes by gw micro) and am passionate about universal
design. From my perspective, I usually tab from link to link or use the
find feature for links. Either way, I do not get any feedback that a
link is underlined and in fact, until this discussion, was not aware
that links were. I would imagine for people with vision impairments,
learning difficulties and anyone else I suppose that the common practice
of an underline would assist in the identification of the link.
For me though, it makes no difference.
I hope this feedback is useful.
Best wishes,
Jo

Jodie Hoger
Teacher Consultant (vision), Equity Services TAFE NSW - Illawarra
Institute, Building A, 60 Bienda St, Bomaderry, NSW, 2541
VOIP 54865| P 02 4421 9865| M 0437 035 042| F 02 4421 9804| E
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | www.illawarra.tafensw.edu.au

From: Stella Mudd
Date: Wed, May 23 2012 10:08PM
Subject: Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
← Previous message | Next message →

Julius,

> Generally, it is a good accessibility practice to
> have an underline on each link.

I think you'll find arguments on both sides, but I have never felt an
underline is necessary. Bottom line for me is whether a link can be
discernible, which has never necessitated an underline. I would argue good
usability no longer requires an underline.

Arguments?

- Stella

On Wednesday, May 23, 2012, Julius Charles Serrano wrote:

> Hi everyone.
>
> Generally, it is a good accessibility practice to have an underline on
> each link.
>
> Regarding this matter, I wanna ask, particularly the accessibility
> advocates here who are blind, is there a way to verify (non-visually)
> that the links on a page are indeed underlined?
>
> I think for sighted accessibility advocates, this is not a problem. I
> just wanna know if there is a way for blind advocates to verify that
> links are underlined. Perhaps we can do this by looking at the code? Any
> ideas?
>
> I think being able to verify this is necessary because sometimes web
> developers tend to remove the underlines for whatever reason.
>
> Thanks everyone.
>
> Julius
>
>
>
> --
> Julius Charles Serrano
> Accessibility Specialist
> Catalyst IT Ltd
> http://www.catalyst.net.nz
> Mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:;>
> Phone: +64 (4) 803-2436
>
> > > >

From: Bevi Chagnon
Date: Thu, May 24 2012 2:28AM
Subject: Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
← Previous message | Next message →

Julius wrote: "Generally, it is a good accessibility practice to have an
underline on
each link."

Julius, underlined links are more of a "convention," which means most
sighted users are expecting that links will be underlined so it's good
practice to underline links if you want most users to quickly see and
identify links.

But as Jodie said below, underlining or any other visual formatting of links
(like blue) is not made known to screen reader users. Their tools tell them
that it's a link, not that it's underlined.

The underlining, however, might be helpful to low-vision users of screen
readers and other A.T. users, just as it would for full-vision users.
-
Bevi Chagnon | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
PubCom - Trainers, consultants, designers, and developers
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and Federal Section 508
- * It's our 30th Year! *

From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Thu, May 24 2012 7:34AM
Subject: Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
← Previous message | Next message →

Most screen readers do have a way to check the characteristics of a word or letter. You can use a screen reader to get feedback that includes the font type, font size, colour, and whether or not the text is underlined, bolded, or italicized.
It is a feature I only use rarely myself--and only if I am wanting to verify the visual appearance of something. Like others have remarked, if it is marked up like a link then the screen reader will state it is a link no matter that it looks like. Even if someone makes it look like a button, the screen reader will still call it a link--which reminds me of the time I spent about 10 minutes trying to register on a site because it instructed me to click the red register button and my screen reader kept telling me that there was no buttons to be found anywhere on the page.

As far as the other comments on this issue... If it is going to work like a link, it is probably easiest for the users if it looks like a link. You might be able to make it look different from the default link appearance, but then you need to ensure that someone is going to look at it and realize that they can interact with it--and not make them have to wave the mouse pointer over the page to figure out which elements they can interact with. If the user has to move the mouse pointer over the element or click on it to know they can interact with it, then you have just increased the likelihood that the user will miss the interaction. So, a link might not always have to look like a link, but it should always be obvious that the user can interact with it. Well, unless your goal is to make the UI tricky to use which I suppose could always be someone's goal.

From: John E Brandt
Date: Thu, May 24 2012 9:01AM
Subject: Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
← Previous message | Next message →

My 2 cents...

The underline is generally a usability feature - not an accessibility
feature. As others have stated, links should stand out in some way from the
rest of the design (the exception may be when you have a menu bar with lots
of links). Personally, I still like links to be blue and underlined!

For folks with low vision or mobility issues, perhaps a more important
usability feature is to ensure that whenever a link has "focus" it can be
clearly distinguished from the rest of the background. The browser will
generally do this in some fashion (usually a dotted box around the link)
unless the CSS has turned this off (something CMS themes and template are
notorious for doing). If I can, I will often modify the design to change the
attributes of the link when the focus is on that link (underline to
no-underline, no-underline to underline, color to different color, no
background color to contrasting background color). But in looking at some of
my sites, I haven't always practiced what I preach.

What techniques do others use?

~j

John E. Brandt
www.jebswebs.com
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
207-622-7937
Augusta, Maine, USA

From: Bourne, Sarah (ITD)
Date: Thu, May 24 2012 9:21AM
Subject: Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
← Previous message | Next message →

As John noted, the method of link identification is a usability issue. From my observations of people who are not technically savvy, if it's not underlined, there is a high probability that a significant number of people will not recognize it as a link. Anecdotally, my mother wouldn't click on something because it wasn't underlined, my assurances that it was a link and the cursor turning to a hand notwithstanding.

For Julius's original question, Jared's suggestion is the best I can think of.

sb

Sarah E. Bourne
Director of Assistive Technology &
Mass.Gov Chief Technology Strategist
Information Technology Division
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
1 Ashburton Pl. rm 1601 Boston MA 02108
617-626-4502
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.mass.gov/itd

From: Oscar DeLong
Date: Thu, May 24 2012 9:26AM
Subject: Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
← Previous message | Next message →

I just want to make one comment. I know some have said that blue and underlined is the convention and as such it may not be necessary anymore to underline links. I would argue the opposite. I work with a wide variety of students, and a lot of them have very little computer knowledge. A lot of our students actually get confused if they do not see the underline. Links without underline get missed as just colored text. In addition students tend to get confused about pictures as links too. It seems that unless it is blue and underlined they do not register it as a link at all.

Just a thought.

Oscar

Oscar DeLong
Associate Librarian
Pulaski Technical College
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(501) 812-2718
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of John E Brandt [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 10:01 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] underline on links, from the blind's perspective

My 2 cents...

The underline is generally a usability feature - not an accessibility
feature. As others have stated, links should stand out in some way from the
rest of the design (the exception may be when you have a menu bar with lots
of links). Personally, I still like links to be blue and underlined!

For folks with low vision or mobility issues, perhaps a more important
usability feature is to ensure that whenever a link has "focus" it can be
clearly distinguished from the rest of the background. The browser will
generally do this in some fashion (usually a dotted box around the link)
unless the CSS has turned this off (something CMS themes and template are
notorious for doing). If I can, I will often modify the design to change the
attributes of the link when the focus is on that link (underline to
no-underline, no-underline to underline, color to different color, no
background color to contrasting background color). But in looking at some of
my sites, I haven't always practiced what I preach.

What techniques do others use?

~j

John E. Brandt
www.jebswebs.com
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
207-622-7937
Augusta, Maine, USA

From: Robyn Hunt
Date: Thu, May 24 2012 1:26PM
Subject: Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
← Previous message | Next message →

<html>
<body>
Hi, 
I agree with Oscar and Sarah. In our work testing with people with
learning difficulties we have found that blue underlined links are
important accessibility features for a group of people who are often
forgotten by web developers and communicators. 
Cheers 
Robyn 
Read my blog at
<a href="http://www.lowvisionary.com/" eudora="autourl">
www.lowvisionary.com<;/a> 
AccEase,
All the information for all the
people all the time 

<a href="http://www.accease.com/" eudora="autourl">www.accease.com 
</a>Twitter @AccEase 
i = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = 
Ph. 64 4 939 0445 
Mobile 027 449 3019 
 
At 06:00 a.m. 25/05/2012, you wrote: 
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific 
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Today's Topics: 
   1. underline on links, from the blind's perspective 
      (Julius Charles Serrano) 
   2. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
(Jared Smith) 
   3. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective 
      (Hoger, Jodie) 
   4. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
(Stella Mudd) 
   5. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective 
      (Bevi Chagnon) 
   6. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective 
      (Tim Harshbarger) 
   7. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective 
      (John E Brandt) 
   8. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective 
      (Bourne, Sarah (ITD)) 
   9. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective 
      (Oscar DeLong) 
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From: Julius Charles Serrano < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 
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Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 14:40:23 +1200 
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Subject: [WebAIM] underline on links, from the blind's perspective 
Message: 1 
Hi everyone. 
Generally, it is a good accessibility practice to have an underline on
each link. 
Regarding this matter, I wanna ask, particularly the accessibility
advocates here who are blind, is there a way to verify (non-visually)
that the links on a page are indeed underlined? 
I think for sighted accessibility advocates, this is not a problem. I
just wanna know if there is a way for blind advocates to verify that
links are underlined. Perhaps we can do this by looking at the code? Any
ideas? 
I think being able to verify this is necessary because sometimes web
developers tend to remove the underlines for whatever reason. 
Thanks everyone. 
Julius 
 
-- 
Julius Charles Serrano 
Accessibility Specialist 
Catalyst IT Ltd 
<a href="http://www.catalyst.net.nz/" eudora="autourl">
http://www.catalyst.net.nz<;/a> 
Mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = 
Phone: +64 (4) 803-2436 
 
 
From: Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 
Precedence: list 
MIME-Version: 1.0 
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 
References: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 
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Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 21:23:21 -0600 
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] underline on links, from the blind's
perspective 
Message: 2 
On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Julius Charles Serrano wrote: 
> is there a way to verify (non-visually) 
> that the links on a page are indeed underlined? 
You can't easily tell from the markup alone, unless you check the
CSS 
to see if there's some style somewhere that might remove the 
underline. One easy way would be to use Firebug in Firefox to
analyze 
the link and see if the computed text-decoration style is set to 
either underline or none. 
Jared 
 
From: "Hoger, Jodie" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 
Precedence: list 
MIME-Version: 1.0 
To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 
References: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 
In-Reply-To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 
Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 13:24:59 +1000 
Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List
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Message-ID:
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Content-Type: text/plain; 
<x-tab>        </x-tab>
charset="US-ASCII" 
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] underline on links, from the blind's
perspective 
Message: 3 
Hi there. I am new to the list and have been watching closely. I am
not 
techy in the slightest - smile but am totally blind and use a screen 
reader (window eyes by gw micro) and am passionate about universal 
design. From my perspective, I usually tab from link to link or use
the 
find feature for links. Either way, I do not get any feedback that a 
link is underlined and in fact, until this discussion, was not aware 
that links were. I would imagine for people with vision impairments, 
learning difficulties and anyone else I suppose that the common
practice 
of an underline would assist in the identification of the link. 
For me though, it makes no difference. 
I hope this feedback is useful. 
Best wishes, 
Jo 
 Jodie Hoger 
Teacher Consultant (vision), Equity Services TAFE NSW - Illawarra 
Institute, Building A, 60 Bienda St, Bomaderry, NSW, 2541 
VOIP 54865| P 02 4421 9865| M 0437 035 042| F 02 4421 9804| E 
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = |
<a href="http://www.illawarra.tafensw.edu.au/" eudora="autourl">
www.illawarra.tafensw.edu.au<;/a>

From: Stella Mudd
Date: Thu, May 24 2012 2:33PM
Subject: Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
← Previous message | Next message →

Interesting read about links underlined and the problems caused with
dyslexic users:

http://www.distilled.net/blog/distilled/usability-versus-dyslexia/

On Thursday, May 24, 2012, Robyn Hunt wrote:

> Hi,
> I agree with Oscar and Sarah. In our work testing with people with
> learning difficulties we have found that blue underlined links are
> important accessibility features for a group of people who are often
> forgotten by web developers and communicators.
> Cheers
> Robyn
>
> Read my blog at www.lowvisionary.com
> AccEase, *All the information for all the people all the time
> * www.accease.com
> Twitter @AccEase
> i* = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Ph. 64 4 939 0445
> Mobile 027 449 3019
>
>
>
> *At 06:00 a.m. 25/05/2012, you wrote:
>
> Send WebAIM-Forum mailing list submissions to
> ** ** = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> ** ** http://list.webaim.org/mailman/listinfo/webaim-forum
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> ** ** = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({},
> 'cvml', ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> ** ** = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({},
> 'cvml', ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of WebAIM-Forum digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. underline on links, from the blind's perspective
> (Julius Charles Serrano)
> 2. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective (Jared Smith)
> 3. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
> (Hoger, Jodie)
> 4. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective (Stella Mudd)
> 5. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
> (Bevi Chagnon)
> 6. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
> (Tim Harshbarger)
> 7. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
> (John E Brandt)
> 8. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
> (Bourne, Sarah (ITD))
> 9. Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
> (Oscar DeLong)
>
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> From: Julius Charles Serrano < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({},
> 'cvml', ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>>
> Precedence: list
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>
> Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 14:40:23 +1200
> Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>
> >
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> ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> Subject: [WebAIM] underline on links, from the blind's perspective
> Message: 1
>
> Hi everyone.
>
> Generally, it is a good accessibility practice to have an underline on
> each link.
>
> Regarding this matter, I wanna ask, particularly the accessibility
> advocates here who are blind, is there a way to verify (non-visually) that
> the links on a page are indeed underlined?
>
> I think for sighted accessibility advocates, this is not a problem. I just
> wanna know if there is a way for blind advocates to verify that links are
> underlined. Perhaps we can do this by looking at the code? Any ideas?
>
> I think being able to verify this is necessary because sometimes web
> developers tend to remove the underlines for whatever reason.
>
> Thanks everyone.
>
> Julius
>
>
>
> --
> Julius Charles Serrano
> Accessibility Specialist
> Catalyst IT Ltd
> http://www.catalyst.net.nz
> Mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>
> Phone: +64 (4) 803-2436
>
>
>
>
> From: Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>>
> Precedence: list
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>
> >
> References: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>>
> In-Reply-To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>>
> Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 21:23:21 -0600
> Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>
> >
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> ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] underline on links, from the blind's perspective
> Message: 2
>
> On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Julius Charles Serrano wrote:
> > is there a way to verify (non-visually)
> > that the links on a page are indeed underlined?
>
> You can't easily tell from the markup alone, unless you check the CSS
> to see if there's some style somewhere that might remove the
> underline. One easy way would be to use Firebug in Firefox to analyze
> the link and see if the computed text-decoration style is set to
> either underline or none.
>
> Jared
>
>
>
> From: "Hoger, Jodie" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({},
> 'cvml', ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>>
> Precedence: list
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>
> >
> References: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>>
> In-Reply-To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>>
> Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 13:24:59 +1000
> Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>
> >
> Message-ID:
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> ** ** charset="US-ASCII"
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] underline on links, from the blind's perspective
> Message: 3
>
> Hi there. I am new to the list and have been watching closely. I am not
> techy in the slightest - smile but am totally blind and use a screen
> reader (window eyes by gw micro) and am passionate about universal
> design. From my perspective, I usually tab from link to link or use the
> find feature for links. Either way, I do not get any feedback that a
> link is underlined and in fact, until this discussion, was not aware
> that links were. I would imagine for people with vision impairments,
> learning difficulties and anyone else I suppose that the common practice
> of an underline would assist in the identification of the link.
> For me though, it makes no difference.
> I hope this feedback is useful.
> Best wishes,
> Jo
>
> Jodie Hoger
> Teacher Consultant (vision), Equity Services TAFE NSW - Illawarra
> Institute, Building A, 60 Bienda St, Bomaderry, NSW, 2541
> VOIP 54865| P 02 4421 9865| M 0437 035 042| F 02 4421 9804| E
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ');>| www.illawarra.tafensw.edu.au
>
>
>
>
>

From: Julius Charles Serrano
Date: Thu, May 24 2012 4:08PM
Subject: Re: underline on links, from the blind's perspective
← Previous message | No next message

Hi everyone.

Thank you all for your responses and comments. Apart from learning new
techniques for my concern, I also learned other things. Truly appreciate it.

I will try the technique involving the CSS of pages and Firebug for
Firefox.

I also like the idea of using the screen reader to know if the text is
underlined. I haven't tried this in web pages though but it's worth a try.

Cheers.

Julius