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Thread: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
Number of posts in this thread: 7 (In chronological order)
From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Wed, Jun 27 2012 8:16PM
Subject: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
No previous message | Next message →
"In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the referenced
elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML elements. So
tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p"
I haven't seen this to be the case. For example, on the page at
http://whatsock.com/modules/carousel_from_xml_module/demo.htm
When you click the Generate Wizard from XML button, it opens a wizard
dialog. All of the form fields use aria-labelledby, and the first field
references two IDs. Neither of the label divs have tabindex=-1, and the
multiple labels appear to be reading without a problem in IE.
> From: Steve Faulkner [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012 11:53 PM
> To: Ian Yang
> Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
>
>
>
> Hi Ian,
>
> The text is not a tooltip, tooltips have particular properties associated
> with them: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#tooltip
>
> Note:
>
> In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
> aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the referenced
> elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML elements. So
> tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p> refer to Making Non
> accessible
> Elements Accessible
>
>
> regards
> Stevef
>
> On 27 June 2012 14:24, Ian Yang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> Yes, the example uses aria-describedby to associate the static < p >
> element and the < input > field so the information will be announced
> when the field receives focus.
>
> The issue which I'm trying to figure out is if adding role="tooltip"
> to the static < p > element has bad effects on assistive technologies.
>
> Regards,
> Ian
>
> 2012/6/27 Steve Faulkner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
>
>> Hi Ian,
>>
>> I suggest its better to include the text within the label for the form
>> field
>> so the information will be announced when the field recieves focus:
>>
>> examples and details here:
>> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/mulitple-labels.html
>>
>> regards
>> steve
>>
>>
>> On 27 June 2012 12:50, Ian Yang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> Please take a look at this image (
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/http://www.lessfussdesign.com/images/blog/form-screen-2009-08-10.gif
>>> ) which is taken from this blog page (
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/2010/08/using-aria-describedby-for-form-help-text/
>>> ).
>>>
>>> The image shows that there is a static description paragraph (< p >
>>> element) below the password input field. In that case, is it okay to
>>> add ARIA role="tooltip" to the static < p > element?
>>>
>>> In most web designs, tooltips are often designed as "popups" which are
>>> triggered by mouse hover. However, if I understand it correctly,
>>> "tooltip" literally means "tip of tool" and doesn't imply that a
>>> tooltip must be a "popup" thing. So, can I add role="tooltip" to
>>> elements which can be considered as "tip of tool", even if they are
>>> static elements? (Just like the example above) By doing so, I feel
>>> they are markup'ed more meaningfully, and we also get the benefit of
>>> having styling hooks.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure whether adding role="tooltip" to static elements has
>>> negative effects to assistive technologies or not. Is this idea
>>> appropriate or inappropriate?
>>>
>>>
>>> Kind Regards,
>>> Ian
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> with regards
>>
>> Steve Faulkner
>> Technical Director - TPG
>>
>> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Wed, Jun 27 2012 9:09PM
Subject: Re: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
← Previous message | Next message →
hi bryan,
you wrote:
"the multiple labels appear to be reading without a problem in IE."
Some scree readers do not rely exclusively upon the accessibility API
information being exposed for aria-labelledby and aria-describedby, they
derive the accessible name and description directly from the DOM. Others do
not.
Testing the accessible name and accessible description being exposed via
the MSAA API using an inspect tool shows the effect of the described
constraints in IE.
regards
Stevef
On 28 June 2012 03:16, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> "In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
> aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the referenced
> elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML elements. So
> tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p"
>
> I haven't seen this to be the case. For example, on the page at
> http://whatsock.com/modules/carousel_from_xml_module/demo.htm
> When you click the Generate Wizard from XML button, it opens a wizard
> dialog. All of the form fields use aria-labelledby, and the first field
> references two IDs. Neither of the label divs have tabindex=-1, and the
> multiple labels appear to be reading without a problem in IE.
>
> > From: Steve Faulkner [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012 11:53 PM
> > To: Ian Yang
> > Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Subject: Re: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Ian,
> >
> > The text is not a tooltip, tooltips have particular properties associated
> > with them: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#tooltip
> >
> > Note:
> >
> > In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
> > aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the referenced
> > elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML elements. So
> > tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p> refer to Making Non
> > accessible
> > Elements Accessible
> >
> >
> > regards
> > Stevef
> >
> > On 27 June 2012 14:24, Ian Yang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > Hi Steve,
> >
> > Yes, the example uses aria-describedby to associate the static < p >
> > element and the < input > field so the information will be announced
> > when the field receives focus.
> >
> > The issue which I'm trying to figure out is if adding role="tooltip"
> > to the static < p > element has bad effects on assistive technologies.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Ian
> >
> > 2012/6/27 Steve Faulkner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> >
> >> Hi Ian,
> >>
> >> I suggest its better to include the text within the label for the form
> >> field
> >> so the information will be announced when the field recieves focus:
> >>
> >> examples and details here:
> >> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/mulitple-labels.html
> >>
> >> regards
> >> steve
> >>
> >>
> >> On 27 June 2012 12:50, Ian Yang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>> Please take a look at this image (
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/http://www.lessfussdesign.com/images/blog/form-screen-2009-08-10.gif
> >>> ) which is taken from this blog page (
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/2010/08/using-aria-describedby-for-form-help-text/
> >>> ).
> >>>
> >>> The image shows that there is a static description paragraph (< p >
> >>> element) below the password input field. In that case, is it okay to
> >>> add ARIA role="tooltip" to the static < p > element?
> >>>
> >>> In most web designs, tooltips are often designed as "popups" which are
> >>> triggered by mouse hover. However, if I understand it correctly,
> >>> "tooltip" literally means "tip of tool" and doesn't imply that a
> >>> tooltip must be a "popup" thing. So, can I add role="tooltip" to
> >>> elements which can be considered as "tip of tool", even if they are
> >>> static elements? (Just like the example above) By doing so, I feel
> >>> they are markup'ed more meaningfully, and we also get the benefit of
> >>> having styling hooks.
> >>>
> >>> I'm not sure whether adding role="tooltip" to static elements has
> >>> negative effects to assistive technologies or not. Is this idea
> >>> appropriate or inappropriate?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Kind Regards,
> >>> Ian
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> with regards
> >>
> >> Steve Faulkner
> >> Technical Director - TPG
> >>
> >> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> >> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> >> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> >> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> >> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> >> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > with regards
> >
> > Steve Faulkner
> > Technical Director - TPG
> >
> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>
> > > >
--
with regards
Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG
www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Wed, Jun 27 2012 10:02PM
Subject: Re: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
← Previous message | Next message →
So this would be a bug in IE would it not?
And even if the screen reader is parsing the correct data in the meantime,
how is this not accessible when the correct data is being conveyed?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Faulkner" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
> hi bryan,
>
> you wrote:
>
> "the multiple labels appear to be reading without a problem in IE."
>
> Some scree readers do not rely exclusively upon the accessibility API
> information being exposed for aria-labelledby and aria-describedby, they
> derive the accessible name and description directly from the DOM. Others
> do
> not.
>
> Testing the accessible name and accessible description being exposed via
> the MSAA API using an inspect tool shows the effect of the described
> constraints in IE.
>
>
>
> regards
> Stevef
>
>
>
> On 28 June 2012 03:16, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> "In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
>> aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the referenced
>> elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML elements. So
>> tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p"
>>
>> I haven't seen this to be the case. For example, on the page at
>> http://whatsock.com/modules/carousel_from_xml_module/demo.htm
>> When you click the Generate Wizard from XML button, it opens a wizard
>> dialog. All of the form fields use aria-labelledby, and the first field
>> references two IDs. Neither of the label divs have tabindex=-1, and the
>> multiple labels appear to be reading without a problem in IE.
>>
>> > From: Steve Faulkner [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012 11:53 PM
>> > To: Ian Yang
>> > Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> > Subject: Re: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Ian,
>> >
>> > The text is not a tooltip, tooltips have particular properties
>> > associated
>> > with them: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#tooltip
>> >
>> > Note:
>> >
>> > In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
>> > aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the referenced
>> > elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML elements. So
>> > tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p> refer to Making Non
>> > accessible
>> > Elements Accessible
>> >
>> >
>> > regards
>> > Stevef
>> >
>> > On 27 June 2012 14:24, Ian Yang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Steve,
>> >
>> > Yes, the example uses aria-describedby to associate the static < p >
>> > element and the < input > field so the information will be announced
>> > when the field receives focus.
>> >
>> > The issue which I'm trying to figure out is if adding role="tooltip"
>> > to the static < p > element has bad effects on assistive technologies.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Ian
>> >
>> > 2012/6/27 Steve Faulkner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
>> >
>> >> Hi Ian,
>> >>
>> >> I suggest its better to include the text within the label for the form
>> >> field
>> >> so the information will be announced when the field recieves focus:
>> >>
>> >> examples and details here:
>> >> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/mulitple-labels.html
>> >>
>> >> regards
>> >> steve
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 27 June 2012 12:50, Ian Yang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi everyone,
>> >>>
>> >>> Please take a look at this image (
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/http://www.lessfussdesign.com/images/blog/form-screen-2009-08-10.gif
>> >>> ) which is taken from this blog page (
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/2010/08/using-aria-describedby-for-form-help-text/
>> >>> ).
>> >>>
>> >>> The image shows that there is a static description paragraph (< p >
>> >>> element) below the password input field. In that case, is it okay to
>> >>> add ARIA role="tooltip" to the static < p > element?
>> >>>
>> >>> In most web designs, tooltips are often designed as "popups" which
>> >>> are
>> >>> triggered by mouse hover. However, if I understand it correctly,
>> >>> "tooltip" literally means "tip of tool" and doesn't imply that a
>> >>> tooltip must be a "popup" thing. So, can I add role="tooltip" to
>> >>> elements which can be considered as "tip of tool", even if they are
>> >>> static elements? (Just like the example above) By doing so, I feel
>> >>> they are markup'ed more meaningfully, and we also get the benefit of
>> >>> having styling hooks.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm not sure whether adding role="tooltip" to static elements has
>> >>> negative effects to assistive technologies or not. Is this idea
>> >>> appropriate or inappropriate?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Kind Regards,
>> >>> Ian
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> with regards
>> >>
>> >> Steve Faulkner
>> >> Technical Director - TPG
>> >>
>> >> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>> >> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> >> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>> >> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> >> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>> >> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > with regards
>> >
>> > Steve Faulkner
>> > Technical Director - TPG
>> >
>> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>>
>> >> >> >>
>
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> > >
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Wed, Jun 27 2012 11:45PM
Subject: Re: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Bryan,
>So this would be a bug in IE would it not?
its not so much a bug as a constraint due to IE's accessibility
architecture which they have documented it
>how is this not accessible when the correct data is being conveyed?
The correct data is not being conveyed via the accessibility API in IE. So
AT that rely upon the browser to provide such information will not get it
and the user will not hear the label or description.
regards
SteveF
On 28 June 2012 05:02, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> So this would be a bug in IE would it not?
>
> And even if the screen reader is parsing the correct data in the meantime,
> how is this not accessible when the correct data is being conveyed?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Faulkner" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
>
>
> > hi bryan,
> >
> > you wrote:
> >
> > "the multiple labels appear to be reading without a problem in IE."
> >
> > Some scree readers do not rely exclusively upon the accessibility API
> > information being exposed for aria-labelledby and aria-describedby, they
> > derive the accessible name and description directly from the DOM. Others
> > do
> > not.
> >
> > Testing the accessible name and accessible description being exposed via
> > the MSAA API using an inspect tool shows the effect of the described
> > constraints in IE.
> >
> >
> >
> > regards
> > Stevef
> >
> >
> >
> > On 28 June 2012 03:16, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
> >> aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the referenced
> >> elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML elements. So
> >> tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p"
> >>
> >> I haven't seen this to be the case. For example, on the page at
> >> http://whatsock.com/modules/carousel_from_xml_module/demo.htm
> >> When you click the Generate Wizard from XML button, it opens a wizard
> >> dialog. All of the form fields use aria-labelledby, and the first field
> >> references two IDs. Neither of the label divs have tabindex=-1, and the
> >> multiple labels appear to be reading without a problem in IE.
> >>
> >> > From: Steve Faulkner [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012 11:53 PM
> >> > To: Ian Yang
> >> > Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> > Subject: Re: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi Ian,
> >> >
> >> > The text is not a tooltip, tooltips have particular properties
> >> > associated
> >> > with them: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#tooltip
> >> >
> >> > Note:
> >> >
> >> > In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
> >> > aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the referenced
> >> > elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML elements. So
> >> > tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p> refer to Making Non
> >> > accessible
> >> > Elements Accessible
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > regards
> >> > Stevef
> >> >
> >> > On 27 June 2012 14:24, Ian Yang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi Steve,
> >> >
> >> > Yes, the example uses aria-describedby to associate the static < p >
> >> > element and the < input > field so the information will be announced
> >> > when the field receives focus.
> >> >
> >> > The issue which I'm trying to figure out is if adding role="tooltip"
> >> > to the static < p > element has bad effects on assistive technologies.
> >> >
> >> > Regards,
> >> > Ian
> >> >
> >> > 2012/6/27 Steve Faulkner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> >> >
> >> >> Hi Ian,
> >> >>
> >> >> I suggest its better to include the text within the label for the
> form
> >> >> field
> >> >> so the information will be announced when the field recieves focus:
> >> >>
> >> >> examples and details here:
> >> >> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/mulitple-labels.html
> >> >>
> >> >> regards
> >> >> steve
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 27 June 2012 12:50, Ian Yang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Hi everyone,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Please take a look at this image (
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >>
> http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/http://www.lessfussdesign.com/images/blog/form-screen-2009-08-10.gif
> >> >>> ) which is taken from this blog page (
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >>
> http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/2010/08/using-aria-describedby-for-form-help-text/
> >> >>> ).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> The image shows that there is a static description paragraph (< p >
> >> >>> element) below the password input field. In that case, is it okay to
> >> >>> add ARIA role="tooltip" to the static < p > element?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> In most web designs, tooltips are often designed as "popups" which
> >> >>> are
> >> >>> triggered by mouse hover. However, if I understand it correctly,
> >> >>> "tooltip" literally means "tip of tool" and doesn't imply that a
> >> >>> tooltip must be a "popup" thing. So, can I add role="tooltip" to
> >> >>> elements which can be considered as "tip of tool", even if they are
> >> >>> static elements? (Just like the example above) By doing so, I feel
> >> >>> they are markup'ed more meaningfully, and we also get the benefit of
> >> >>> having styling hooks.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I'm not sure whether adding role="tooltip" to static elements has
> >> >>> negative effects to assistive technologies or not. Is this idea
> >> >>> appropriate or inappropriate?
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Kind Regards,
> >> >>> Ian
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> with regards
> >> >>
> >> >> Steve Faulkner
> >> >> Technical Director - TPG
> >> >>
> >> >> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> >> >> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> >> >> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> >> >> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> >> >> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> >> >> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > with regards
> >> >
> >> > Steve Faulkner
> >> > Technical Director - TPG
> >> >
> >> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> >> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> >> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> >> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> >> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> >> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> >>
> >> > >> > >> > >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > with regards
> >
> > Steve Faulkner
> > Technical Director - TPG
> >
> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> > > > > > >
> > > >
--
with regards
Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG
www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Thu, Jun 28 2012 2:03AM
Subject: Re: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
← Previous message | Next message →
"its not so much a bug as a constraint due to IE's accessibility
architecture which they have documented it"
True, and it looks like the screen readers have compensated for this by
processing the aria-labelledby and aria-describedby attributes correctly.
Can you give me examples of which screen readers these attributes are not
working correctly on in IE? This would help.
"and the user will not hear the label or description"
This is what's confusing me, because I am hearing descriptions on all of my
implementations using IE8 and 9 with JAWS12 and 13, and even in NVDA in IE 8
and 9 (though NVDA is programmed to work better in Firefox). I would
definitely notice if they were not working in IE.
The concept of requiring tabindex=-1 on all elements referenced by
aria-labelledby/aria-describedby sounds very similar to saying that the only
way to make explicit form field labels is to include tabindex=-1 on all
Label elements, which isn't making sense to me.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Faulkner" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
> Hi Bryan,
>
>>So this would be a bug in IE would it not?
>
> its not so much a bug as a constraint due to IE's accessibility
> architecture which they have documented it
>
>>how is this not accessible when the correct data is being conveyed?
>
> The correct data is not being conveyed via the accessibility API in IE. So
> AT that rely upon the browser to provide such information will not get it
> and the user will not hear the label or description.
>
> regards
> SteveF
>
>
> On 28 June 2012 05:02, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> So this would be a bug in IE would it not?
>>
>> And even if the screen reader is parsing the correct data in the
>> meantime,
>> how is this not accessible when the correct data is being conveyed?
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Faulkner" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:09 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static
>> elements?
>>
>>
>> > hi bryan,
>> >
>> > you wrote:
>> >
>> > "the multiple labels appear to be reading without a problem in IE."
>> >
>> > Some scree readers do not rely exclusively upon the accessibility API
>> > information being exposed for aria-labelledby and aria-describedby,
>> > they
>> > derive the accessible name and description directly from the DOM.
>> > Others
>> > do
>> > not.
>> >
>> > Testing the accessible name and accessible description being exposed
>> > via
>> > the MSAA API using an inspect tool shows the effect of the described
>> > constraints in IE.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > regards
>> > Stevef
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 28 June 2012 03:16, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
>> >> aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the referenced
>> >> elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML elements. So
>> >> tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p"
>> >>
>> >> I haven't seen this to be the case. For example, on the page at
>> >> http://whatsock.com/modules/carousel_from_xml_module/demo.htm
>> >> When you click the Generate Wizard from XML button, it opens a wizard
>> >> dialog. All of the form fields use aria-labelledby, and the first
>> >> field
>> >> references two IDs. Neither of the label divs have tabindex=-1, and
>> >> the
>> >> multiple labels appear to be reading without a problem in IE.
>> >>
>> >> > From: Steve Faulkner [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012 11:53 PM
>> >> > To: Ian Yang
>> >> > Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >> > Subject: Re: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi Ian,
>> >> >
>> >> > The text is not a tooltip, tooltips have particular properties
>> >> > associated
>> >> > with them: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#tooltip
>> >> >
>> >> > Note:
>> >> >
>> >> > In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
>> >> > aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the
>> >> > referenced
>> >> > elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML elements.
>> >> > So
>> >> > tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p> refer to Making Non
>> >> > accessible
>> >> > Elements Accessible
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > regards
>> >> > Stevef
>> >> >
>> >> > On 27 June 2012 14:24, Ian Yang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi Steve,
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes, the example uses aria-describedby to associate the static < p >
>> >> > element and the < input > field so the information will be announced
>> >> > when the field receives focus.
>> >> >
>> >> > The issue which I'm trying to figure out is if adding role="tooltip"
>> >> > to the static < p > element has bad effects on assistive
>> >> > technologies.
>> >> >
>> >> > Regards,
>> >> > Ian
>> >> >
>> >> > 2012/6/27 Steve Faulkner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hi Ian,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I suggest its better to include the text within the label for the
>> form
>> >> >> field
>> >> >> so the information will be announced when the field recieves focus:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> examples and details here:
>> >> >> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/mulitple-labels.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >> regards
>> >> >> steve
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 27 June 2012 12:50, Ian Yang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Hi everyone,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Please take a look at this image (
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >>
>> http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/http://www.lessfussdesign.com/images/blog/form-screen-2009-08-10.gif
>> >> >>> ) which is taken from this blog page (
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >>
>> http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/2010/08/using-aria-describedby-for-form-help-text/
>> >> >>> ).
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The image shows that there is a static description paragraph (< p
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> element) below the password input field. In that case, is it okay
>> >> >>> to
>> >> >>> add ARIA role="tooltip" to the static < p > element?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> In most web designs, tooltips are often designed as "popups" which
>> >> >>> are
>> >> >>> triggered by mouse hover. However, if I understand it correctly,
>> >> >>> "tooltip" literally means "tip of tool" and doesn't imply that a
>> >> >>> tooltip must be a "popup" thing. So, can I add role="tooltip" to
>> >> >>> elements which can be considered as "tip of tool", even if they
>> >> >>> are
>> >> >>> static elements? (Just like the example above) By doing so, I feel
>> >> >>> they are markup'ed more meaningfully, and we also get the benefit
>> >> >>> of
>> >> >>> having styling hooks.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I'm not sure whether adding role="tooltip" to static elements has
>> >> >>> negative effects to assistive technologies or not. Is this idea
>> >> >>> appropriate or inappropriate?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Kind Regards,
>> >> >>> Ian
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> with regards
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Steve Faulkner
>> >> >> Technical Director - TPG
>> >> >>
>> >> >> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>> >> >> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> >> >> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>> >> >> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> >> >> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>> >> >> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > with regards
>> >> >
>> >> > Steve Faulkner
>> >> > Technical Director - TPG
>> >> >
>> >> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>> >> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> >> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>> >> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> >> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>> >> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > with regards
>> >
>> > Steve Faulkner
>> > Technical Director - TPG
>> >
>> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>> > >> > >> > >>
>> >> >> >>
>
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> > >
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Thu, Jun 28 2012 3:16AM
Subject: Re: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Bryan,
provided test page:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/377471/tests/labelledby-tabindex.html
for the tests without tabindex-1 NVDA does not read the full label or
description
you wrote:
"The concept of requiring tabindex=-1 on all elements referenced by
aria-labelledby/aria- describedby sounds very similar to saying that the
only
way to make explicit form field labels is to include tabindex=-1 on all
Label elements, which isn't making sense to me."
don't understand this comment. The concept is one documented by microsoft.
tabindex is only required on elements that are not defined as accessible
elements in IE, that is why i suggest using a label element as it does not
require tabindex.
regards
Stevef
On 28 June 2012 09:03, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> "its not so much a bug as a constraint due to IE's accessibility
> architecture which they have documented it"
>
> True, and it looks like the screen readers have compensated for this by
> processing the aria-labelledby and aria-describedby attributes correctly.
> Can you give me examples of which screen readers these attributes are not
> working correctly on in IE? This would help.
>
> "and the user will not hear the label or description"
>
> This is what's confusing me, because I am hearing descriptions on all of
my
> implementations using IE8 and 9 with JAWS12 and 13, and even in NVDA in
IE 8
> and 9 (though NVDA is programmed to work better in Firefox). I would
> definitely notice if they were not working in IE.
>
> The concept of requiring tabindex=-1 on all elements referenced by
> aria-labelledby/aria-describedby sounds very similar to saying that the
only
> way to make explicit form field labels is to include tabindex=-1 on all
> Label elements, which isn't making sense to me.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Faulkner" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
>
>
> > Hi Bryan,
> >
> >>So this would be a bug in IE would it not?
> >
> > its not so much a bug as a constraint due to IE's accessibility
> > architecture which they have documented it
> >
> >>how is this not accessible when the correct data is being conveyed?
> >
> > The correct data is not being conveyed via the accessibility API in IE.
So
> > AT that rely upon the browser to provide such information will not get
it
> > and the user will not hear the label or description.
> >
> > regards
> > SteveF
> >
> >
> > On 28 June 2012 05:02, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> So this would be a bug in IE would it not?
> >>
> >> And even if the screen reader is parsing the correct data in the
> >> meantime,
> >> how is this not accessible when the correct data is being conveyed?
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Steve Faulkner" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:09 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static
> >> elements?
> >>
> >>
> >> > hi bryan,
> >> >
> >> > you wrote:
> >> >
> >> > "the multiple labels appear to be reading without a problem in IE."
> >> >
> >> > Some scree readers do not rely exclusively upon the accessibility API
> >> > information being exposed for aria-labelledby and aria-describedby,
> >> > they
> >> > derive the accessible name and description directly from the DOM.
> >> > Others
> >> > do
> >> > not.
> >> >
> >> > Testing the accessible name and accessible description being exposed
> >> > via
> >> > the MSAA API using an inspect tool shows the effect of the described
> >> > constraints in IE.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > regards
> >> > Stevef
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 28 June 2012 03:16, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
> >> >> aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the
referenced
> >> >> elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML elements.
So
> >> >> tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p"
> >> >>
> >> >> I haven't seen this to be the case. For example, on the page at
> >> >> http://whatsock.com/modules/carousel_from_xml_module/demo.htm
> >> >> When you click the Generate Wizard from XML button, it opens a
wizard
> >> >> dialog. All of the form fields use aria-labelledby, and the first
> >> >> field
> >> >> references two IDs. Neither of the label divs have tabindex=-1, and
> >> >> the
> >> >> multiple labels appear to be reading without a problem in IE.
> >> >>
> >> >> > From: Steve Faulkner [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012 11:53 PM
> >> >> > To: Ian Yang
> >> >> > Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hi Ian,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The text is not a tooltip, tooltips have particular properties
> >> >> > associated
> >> >> > with them: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#tooltip
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Note:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
> >> >> > aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the
> >> >> > referenced
> >> >> > elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML elements.
> >> >> > So
> >> >> > tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p> refer to Making Non
> >> >> > accessible
> >> >> > Elements Accessible
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > regards
> >> >> > Stevef
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On 27 June 2012 14:24, Ian Yang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hi Steve,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Yes, the example uses aria-describedby to associate the static <
p >
> >> >> > element and the < input > field so the information will be
announced
> >> >> > when the field receives focus.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The issue which I'm trying to figure out is if adding
role="tooltip"
> >> >> > to the static < p > element has bad effects on assistive
> >> >> > technologies.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Regards,
> >> >> > Ian
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2012/6/27 Steve Faulkner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Hi Ian,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I suggest its better to include the text within the label for the
> >> form
> >> >> >> field
> >> >> >> so the information will be announced when the field recieves
focus:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> examples and details here:
> >> >> >> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/mulitple-labels.html
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> regards
> >> >> >> steve
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On 27 June 2012 12:50, Ian Yang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Hi everyone,
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Please take a look at this image (
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >>
http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/http://www.lessfussdesign.com/images/blog/form-screen-2009-08-10.gif
> >> >> >>> ) which is taken from this blog page (
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >>
http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/2010/08/using-aria-describedby-for-form-help-text/
> >> >> >>> ).
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> The image shows that there is a static description paragraph (<
p
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> element) below the password input field. In that case, is it
okay
> >> >> >>> to
> >> >> >>> add ARIA role="tooltip" to the static < p > element?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> In most web designs, tooltips are often designed as "popups"
which
> >> >> >>> are
> >> >> >>> triggered by mouse hover. However, if I understand it correctly,
> >> >> >>> "tooltip" literally means "tip of tool" and doesn't imply that a
> >> >> >>> tooltip must be a "popup" thing. So, can I add role="tooltip" to
> >> >> >>> elements which can be considered as "tip of tool", even if they
> >> >> >>> are
> >> >> >>> static elements? (Just like the example above) By doing so, I
feel
> >> >> >>> they are markup'ed more meaningfully, and we also get the
benefit
> >> >> >>> of
> >> >> >>> having styling hooks.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I'm not sure whether adding role="tooltip" to static elements
has
> >> >> >>> negative effects to assistive technologies or not. Is this idea
> >> >> >>> appropriate or inappropriate?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Kind Regards,
> >> >> >>> Ian
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> with regards
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Steve Faulkner
> >> >> >> Technical Director - TPG
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> >> >> >> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> >> >> >> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> >> >> >> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> >> >> >> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> >> >> >> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > with regards
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Steve Faulkner
> >> >> > Technical Director - TPG
> >> >> >
> >> >> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> >> >> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> >> >> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> >> >> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> >> >> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> >> >> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > with regards
> >> >
> >> > Steve Faulkner
> >> > Technical Director - TPG
> >> >
> >> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> >> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> >> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> >> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> >> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> >> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >>
> >> > >> > >> > >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > with regards
> >
> > Steve Faulkner
> > Technical Director - TPG
> >
> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> > > > > > >
> > > --
with regards
Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG
www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Fri, Jun 29 2012 1:10AM
Subject: Re: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
← Previous message | No next message
Ah yes, I see your point.
The concept is what sounds odd to me, since I imagine aria-labelledby for
instance to mirror the functionality of an explicit label.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Faulkner" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
> Hi Bryan,
>
> provided test page:
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/377471/tests/labelledby-tabindex.html
>
> for the tests without tabindex-1 NVDA does not read the full label or
> description
>
> you wrote:
>
> "The concept of requiring tabindex=-1 on all elements referenced by
> aria-labelledby/aria- describedby sounds very similar to saying that the
> only
> way to make explicit form field labels is to include tabindex=-1 on all
> Label elements, which isn't making sense to me."
>
> don't understand this comment. The concept is one documented by
> microsoft.
> tabindex is only required on elements that are not defined as accessible
> elements in IE, that is why i suggest using a label element as it does not
> require tabindex.
>
> regards
> Stevef
>
>
>
> On 28 June 2012 09:03, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>>
>> "its not so much a bug as a constraint due to IE's accessibility
>> architecture which they have documented it"
>>
>> True, and it looks like the screen readers have compensated for this by
>> processing the aria-labelledby and aria-describedby attributes correctly.
>> Can you give me examples of which screen readers these attributes are not
>> working correctly on in IE? This would help.
>>
>> "and the user will not hear the label or description"
>>
>> This is what's confusing me, because I am hearing descriptions on all of
> my
>> implementations using IE8 and 9 with JAWS12 and 13, and even in NVDA in
> IE 8
>> and 9 (though NVDA is programmed to work better in Firefox). I would
>> definitely notice if they were not working in IE.
>>
>> The concept of requiring tabindex=-1 on all elements referenced by
>> aria-labelledby/aria-describedby sounds very similar to saying that the
> only
>> way to make explicit form field labels is to include tabindex=-1 on all
>> Label elements, which isn't making sense to me.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Faulkner" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static
>> elements?
>>
>>
>> > Hi Bryan,
>> >
>> >>So this would be a bug in IE would it not?
>> >
>> > its not so much a bug as a constraint due to IE's accessibility
>> > architecture which they have documented it
>> >
>> >>how is this not accessible when the correct data is being conveyed?
>> >
>> > The correct data is not being conveyed via the accessibility API in IE.
> So
>> > AT that rely upon the browser to provide such information will not get
> it
>> > and the user will not hear the label or description.
>> >
>> > regards
>> > SteveF
>> >
>> >
>> > On 28 June 2012 05:02, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> So this would be a bug in IE would it not?
>> >>
>> >> And even if the screen reader is parsing the correct data in the
>> >> meantime,
>> >> how is this not accessible when the correct data is being conveyed?
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Steve Faulkner" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> >> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:09 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static
>> >> elements?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > hi bryan,
>> >> >
>> >> > you wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > "the multiple labels appear to be reading without a problem in IE."
>> >> >
>> >> > Some scree readers do not rely exclusively upon the accessibility
>> >> > API
>> >> > information being exposed for aria-labelledby and aria-describedby,
>> >> > they
>> >> > derive the accessible name and description directly from the DOM.
>> >> > Others
>> >> > do
>> >> > not.
>> >> >
>> >> > Testing the accessible name and accessible description being exposed
>> >> > via
>> >> > the MSAA API using an inspect tool shows the effect of the described
>> >> > constraints in IE.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > regards
>> >> > Stevef
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 28 June 2012 03:16, Bryan Garaventa
>> >> > < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
>> >> >> aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the
> referenced
>> >> >> elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML elements.
> So
>> >> >> tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p"
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I haven't seen this to be the case. For example, on the page at
>> >> >> http://whatsock.com/modules/carousel_from_xml_module/demo.htm
>> >> >> When you click the Generate Wizard from XML button, it opens a
> wizard
>> >> >> dialog. All of the form fields use aria-labelledby, and the first
>> >> >> field
>> >> >> references two IDs. Neither of the label divs have tabindex=-1, and
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> multiple labels appear to be reading without a problem in IE.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > From: Steve Faulkner [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012 11:53 PM
>> >> >> > To: Ian Yang
>> >> >> > Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is it okay to add role="tooltip" to static elements?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Hi Ian,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > The text is not a tooltip, tooltips have particular properties
>> >> >> > associated
>> >> >> > with them: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#tooltip
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Note:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > In IE if you use aria-labelledby with multiple id references or
>> >> >> > aria-describedby with single or multiple id references, the
>> >> >> > referenced
>> >> >> > elements must be what Microsoft terms as accessible HTML
>> >> >> > elements.
>> >> >> > So
>> >> >> > tabindex=-1 would have to be added to the <p> refer to Making Non
>> >> >> > accessible
>> >> >> > Elements Accessible
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > regards
>> >> >> > Stevef
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On 27 June 2012 14:24, Ian Yang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Hi Steve,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Yes, the example uses aria-describedby to associate the static <
> p >
>> >> >> > element and the < input > field so the information will be
> announced
>> >> >> > when the field receives focus.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > The issue which I'm trying to figure out is if adding
> role="tooltip"
>> >> >> > to the static < p > element has bad effects on assistive
>> >> >> > technologies.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Regards,
>> >> >> > Ian
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > 2012/6/27 Steve Faulkner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Hi Ian,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I suggest its better to include the text within the label for
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> form
>> >> >> >> field
>> >> >> >> so the information will be announced when the field recieves
> focus:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> examples and details here:
>> >> >> >> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/mulitple-labels.html
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> regards
>> >> >> >> steve
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On 27 June 2012 12:50, Ian Yang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Hi everyone,
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Please take a look at this image (
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >>
> http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/http://www.lessfussdesign.com/images/blog/form-screen-2009-08-10.gif
>> >> >> >>> ) which is taken from this blog page (
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >>
> http://www.lessfussdesign.com/blog/2010/08/using-aria-describedby-for-form-help-text/
>> >> >> >>> ).
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> The image shows that there is a static description paragraph (<
> p
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> element) below the password input field. In that case, is it
> okay
>> >> >> >>> to
>> >> >> >>> add ARIA role="tooltip" to the static < p > element?
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> In most web designs, tooltips are often designed as "popups"
> which
>> >> >> >>> are
>> >> >> >>> triggered by mouse hover. However, if I understand it
>> >> >> >>> correctly,
>> >> >> >>> "tooltip" literally means "tip of tool" and doesn't imply that
>> >> >> >>> a
>> >> >> >>> tooltip must be a "popup" thing. So, can I add role="tooltip"
>> >> >> >>> to
>> >> >> >>> elements which can be considered as "tip of tool", even if they
>> >> >> >>> are
>> >> >> >>> static elements? (Just like the example above) By doing so, I
> feel
>> >> >> >>> they are markup'ed more meaningfully, and we also get the
> benefit
>> >> >> >>> of
>> >> >> >>> having styling hooks.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> I'm not sure whether adding role="tooltip" to static elements
> has
>> >> >> >>> negative effects to assistive technologies or not. Is this idea
>> >> >> >>> appropriate or inappropriate?
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Kind Regards,
>> >> >> >>> Ian
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> with regards
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Steve Faulkner
>> >> >> >> Technical Director - TPG
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>> >> >> >> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> >> >> >> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>> >> >> >> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> >> >> >> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>> >> >> >> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> > with regards
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Steve Faulkner
>> >> >> > Technical Director - TPG
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>> >> >> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> >> >> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>> >> >> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> >> >> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>> >> >> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > with regards
>> >> >
>> >> > Steve Faulkner
>> >> > Technical Director - TPG
>> >> >
>> >> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>> >> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> >> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>> >> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> >> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>> >> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > with regards
>> >
>> > Steve Faulkner
>> > Technical Director - TPG
>> >
>> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>> > >> > >> > >>
>> >> >> >
>
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> > >