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Thread: Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity and Punctuation settings.
Number of posts in this thread: 14 (In chronological order)
From: John Foliot
Date: Fri, Jul 27 2012 11:05AM
Subject: Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity and Punctuation settings.
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Hi All,
Just doing a quick poll to try and figure out a minor question. What I am
attempting to determine is what are your settings? Verbosity: Low, Medium or
Beginner? Then Punctuation: All, Most, Some or None?
The question being considered is whether or not to include (parenthesis) in
off-screen text: is there a value to doing so, or should I not bother?
Data and comments most appreciated.
JF
---------------
John Foliot
Web Accessibility Specialist
Co-Chair, W3C HTML5 Accessibility Task Force (Media)
Co-founder, Open Web Camp
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Fri, Jul 27 2012 11:18AM
Subject: Re: Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity and Punctuation settings.
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No scientific data from me, unfortunately, but I think a lot of users
do not mess with the original Jaws settings (as someone involved in
teaching quite a few users over the years I do have a point at least),
and I believe that to be all and beginner verbosity.
I still keep my punctuation at most and verbosity at intermediate,
because there are non-alphabetical cues, like brackets etc, that are
often useful and should not be overlooked.
On pages one might consider using a disclaimer or statement for screen
reader users that they keep their verbosity level at a certain
minimum, it's a thought at least.
Cheers
-B
On 7/27/12, John Foliot < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Just doing a quick poll to try and figure out a minor question. What I am
> attempting to determine is what are your settings? Verbosity: Low, Medium
> or
> Beginner? Then Punctuation: All, Most, Some or None?
>
> The question being considered is whether or not to include (parenthesis) in
> off-screen text: is there a value to doing so, or should I not bother?
>
> Data and comments most appreciated.
>
> JF
> ---------------
> John Foliot
> Web Accessibility Specialist
> Co-Chair, W3C HTML5 Accessibility Task Force (Media)
> Co-founder, Open Web Camp
>
>
>
> > > >
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Fri, Jul 27 2012 11:24AM
Subject: Re: Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity and Punctuationsettings.
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Hello:
I always turn punctuation to none or at the least some whenever possible.
Only when I'm editing do I turn punctuation on and even then I try to use
braille not speech. I use it instead of verbosity as I hate hearing anything
more than I have to. As much as I hear jaws all day the less I hear from it
the better. I find most of my students work at intermediate and have some
punctuation turned on a majority of the time interestingly these are
students that only use word processing. They do very little on the web and
have very low web skills.
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
From: Scott González
Date: Fri, Jul 27 2012 11:26AM
Subject: Re: Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity and Punctuation settings.
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This is a bit of a long response, but this is what I got back from Rich
Caloggero when I asked a similar question last year (I was specifically
asking about punctuation announcement when reading source code):
I find Jaws to be pretty smart about punctuation. I set it to most which
tends to read most punctuation in code. It skips punctuation that is at
the end of a word token (blank separated runs of nonblank symbols). So
"foo. bar will drop the dot from the utterance, while foo.bar will speak
foo dot bar. The effect of this is that it tends to read English text
just fine, and will read most text and code mixtures just fine without
needing to switch punctuationreading modes.
Jaws reads parens, brackets, and braces as left/right paren / bracket /
brace, respectively.
It reads <expression> as less expression greater.
No single keys to change punctuation on the fly; easy enough to change via
verbosity settings. I think nvda might be able to change with one
keystroke, but not sure about that. I also think nvda has similar
pronounciation rules whenpunctuation is set to most.
On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 1:05 PM, John Foliot < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Just doing a quick poll to try and figure out a minor question. What I am
> attempting to determine is what are your settings? Verbosity: Low, Medium
> or
> Beginner? Then Punctuation: All, Most, Some or None?
>
> The question being considered is whether or not to include (parenthesis) in
> off-screen text: is there a value to doing so, or should I not bother?
>
> Data and comments most appreciated.
>
> JF
> ---------------
> John Foliot
> Web Accessibility Specialist
> Co-Chair, W3C HTML5 Accessibility Task Force (Media)
> Co-founder, Open Web Camp
>
>
>
> > > >
From: Andrews, David B (DEED)
Date: Fri, Jul 27 2012 11:49AM
Subject: Re: Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity and Punctuationsettings.
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I generally set verbosity to intermediate, and punctuation to Some. For what it is worth, I believe the JAWS defaults out of the box are beginner verbosity and most punctuation.
Dave
From: Bim Egan
Date: Fri, Jul 27 2012 12:08PM
Subject: Re: Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity and Punctuationsettings.
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Hi John,
My personal settings for JFW are Advanced verbocity and "some" punctuation.
That's me as a user. When I'm evalulating, I bring down the verbocity to
Beginner, but leave the punctuation as "some", on the grounds that hearing
brackets may be a distraction. When writing code I obviously crank up the
punctuation to "all".
Generally I think that the use of commas is more reliable than brackets, as
far as I can tell, all screen readers provide a slight pause when
encountering commas, but there's no such pause or inflection when brackets
are encountered. The inflection differs between screen readers, but a pause
is always available.
For instance the familiar sentence:
"Resources are for information purposes only, no endorsement implied."
Read by JAWS the text "no endorsement implied." sounds like an aside, the
(pitch is lower).
Read by NVDA there's no change in pitch but there is a pause.
Colons are also honoured by screen readers; providing a pause of similar
length to the period, but with a different pitch change than that used for
a new sentence.
HTH,
Bim
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foliot" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; "'WebAIM Discussion List'"
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 6:05 PM
Subject: [WebAIM] Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity and
Punctuationsettings.
Hi All,
Just doing a quick poll to try and figure out a minor question. What I am
attempting to determine is what are your settings? Verbosity: Low, Medium or
Beginner? Then Punctuation: All, Most, Some or None?
The question being considered is whether or not to include (parenthesis) in
off-screen text: is there a value to doing so, or should I not bother?
Data and comments most appreciated.
JF
---------------
John Foliot
Web Accessibility Specialist
Co-Chair, W3C HTML5 Accessibility Task Force (Media)
Co-founder, Open Web Camp
From: Léonie Watson
Date: Fri, Jul 27 2012 12:25PM
Subject: Re: Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity andPunctuationsettings.
← Previous message | Next message →
Bim Egan wrote:
"Generally I think that the use of commas is more reliable than brackets, as
far as I can tell, all screen readers provide a slight pause when
encountering commas, but there's no such pause or inflection when brackets
are encountered. The inflection differs between screen readers, but a pause
is always available."
Interestingly, this brings the different TTS into the equation too. Most
Windows screen readers can be used with at least two different TTS these
days, and it's usually the TTS that defines this level of behaviour.
Léonie.
From: Léonie Watson
Date: Fri, Jul 27 2012 12:25PM
Subject: Re: Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity and Punctuationsettings.
← Previous message | Next message →
John Foliot wrote:
"Just doing a quick poll to try and figure out a minor question. What I am
attempting to determine is what are your settings? Verbosity: Low, Medium or
Beginner? Then Punctuation: All, Most, Some or None?"
I mentioned on Twitter that I set Jaws to advanced verbosity by default
(with some slight modification), and punctuation to none. It may not have a
bearing in this case, but I also use Jaws' application specific settings to
change its default behaviour. In my text editor I have punctuation set to
most for example.
"The question being considered is whether or not to include (parenthesis) in
off-screen text: is there a value to doing so, or should I not bother?"
My general rule of thumb is to use punctuation in whichever way is
grammatically correct. Were you thinking that parentheses could be used to
programmatically indicate that text was offscreen?
Léonie.
From: Mary Stores
Date: Fri, Jul 27 2012 12:27PM
Subject: Re: Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity and Punctuationsettings.
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Hello,
I personally have my verbosity settings set to intermediate, and either
have some or no punctuation announced (usually set to none). JAWS does
a pretty good job at pausing where appropriate, and if I'm curious
about punctuation in a document, I will use my arrow key where it
occurs to determine what it is.
I know when I first train people, they do not mess with the verbosity
settings much, but if they continue to use JAWS, they soon become
annoyed with how chatty it is and then begin to explore options for
changing the settings.
Mary
Quoting "Birkir R. Gunnarsson" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> No scientific data from me, unfortunately, but I think a lot of users
> do not mess with the original Jaws settings (as someone involved in
> teaching quite a few users over the years I do have a point at least),
> and I believe that to be all and beginner verbosity.
> I still keep my punctuation at most and verbosity at intermediate,
> because there are non-alphabetical cues, like brackets etc, that are
> often useful and should not be overlooked.
> On pages one might consider using a disclaimer or statement for screen
> reader users that they keep their verbosity level at a certain
> minimum, it's a thought at least.
> Cheers
> -B
>
> On 7/27/12, John Foliot < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Just doing a quick poll to try and figure out a minor question. What I am
>> attempting to determine is what are your settings? Verbosity: Low, Medium
>> or
>> Beginner? Then Punctuation: All, Most, Some or None?
>>
>> The question being considered is whether or not to include (parenthesis) in
>> off-screen text: is there a value to doing so, or should I not bother?
>>
>> Data and comments most appreciated.
>>
>> JF
From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Mon, Aug 13 2012 12:39PM
Subject: Re: Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity and Punctuation settings.
← Previous message | Next message →
John,
Verbosity and punctuation are user preferences and should not be a
concern. Users may set different preferences from time to time or from
application to application or from task to task.
And some do not like to change them.
What is important is that visible text and off-screen text should not
run together / appear concatenated for AT users.
One should use space / hyphens / parenthesis as one would use them
normally to serve as separators.
Rightho,
Sailesh
On 7/29/12, Adam Cooper < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> Settings below:
> Verbosity - advanced
> Punctuation - most
>
> And in answer to your question: you should not bother using off-screen
> text.
> It is arguable that it doesn't meet 1.3.1 and screen reader users are not
> the only people with disabilities who are going to be viewing the page nor
> the only type of assistive technology used.
>
> Cheers,
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
From: John Foliot
Date: Mon, Aug 13 2012 12:58PM
Subject: Re: Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity and Punctuation settings.
← Previous message | Next message →
Sailesh Panchang wrote:
>
> John,
> Verbosity and punctuation are user preferences and should not be a
> concern. Users may set different preferences from time to time or from
> application to application or from task to task.
I am aware of this, which is why I posed the question in the first place - I
am trying to get a sense of what user preferences are when surfing the web.
> And some do not like to change them.
> What is important is that visible text and off-screen text should not
> run together / appear concatenated for AT users.
Agreed, to the point that we will inject a non-breaking space - - at
the start of hidden text to specifically avoid that problem in at least one
combination of browser and screen reader.
> One should use space / hyphens / parenthesis as one would use them
> normally to serve as separators.
Except - and this is why I am asking - it is appearing that virtually no
user is benefitting from the use of parenthesis in hidden text. In my
limited testing, and based on this quick poll results, the only time that
hidden text (that is, text hidden from visual view, intended exclusively for
screen reader users) actually enunciates the opening and closing parenthesis
is under the edge case of the Read Everything verbosity settings, that is
rarely used when surfing the web.
To keep this in context, the question is whether or not an EDITORIAL
standard for this type of text should MANDATE the use of parenthesis. The
feedback I have received to date suggests not, but I am still open to
reasons why that should change. If there is no practical benefit - and I
mean practical - then we can leave this as an editorial choice.
Cheers!
JF
From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Mon, Aug 13 2012 2:55PM
Subject: Re: Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity and Punctuation settings.
← Previous message | Next message →
John,
Unless an AT user is tech-savvy and is scrutinizing the markup,
ordinarily he will not be able to say ( or be bothered by) what text
on the page is off-screen. He will browse the content and UI elements
like he does anywhere else on the page.
(The off-screen text I suppose is used correctly, does not duplicate
content and helps the user).
So will you say, one should not use parenthesis / hyphens etc. even in
visible text on the page because screen reader users have turned them
off?
I suppose not.
That's what I mean by use them normally even within off-screen text.
They will notice them if they are going to notice them elsewhere on
the page or if they have turned them off, so be it.
If the visible linked text is "Annual Report 2012-13" and just for
argument sake, one decides to convey that it opens in a new window, I
suppose one would want some sort of a separator there hyphen or
parenthesis... regardless of whether the text is visible or not.
So it should be "Annual Report 2012-13 (opens new window)" for instance.
Now if one wishes to keep that notification off-screen, fine, no problems.
Normal editorial rules apply.
Sailesh
On 8/13/12, John Foliot < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Sailesh Panchang wrote:
>>
>> John,
>> Verbosity and punctuation are user preferences and should not be a
>> concern. Users may set different preferences from time to time or from
>> application to application or from task to task.
>
> I am aware of this, which is why I posed the question in the first place -
> I
> am trying to get a sense of what user preferences are when surfing the web.
>
>
>> And some do not like to change them.
>> What is important is that visible text and off-screen text should not
>> run together / appear concatenated for AT users.
>
> Agreed, to the point that we will inject a non-breaking space - - at
> the start of hidden text to specifically avoid that problem in at least one
> combination of browser and screen reader.
>
>
>> One should use space / hyphens / parenthesis as one would use them
>> normally to serve as separators.
>
> Except - and this is why I am asking - it is appearing that virtually no
> user is benefitting from the use of parenthesis in hidden text. In my
> limited testing, and based on this quick poll results, the only time that
> hidden text (that is, text hidden from visual view, intended exclusively
> for
> screen reader users) actually enunciates the opening and closing
> parenthesis
> is under the edge case of the Read Everything verbosity settings, that is
> rarely used when surfing the web.
>
> To keep this in context, the question is whether or not an EDITORIAL
> standard for this type of text should MANDATE the use of parenthesis. The
> feedback I have received to date suggests not, but I am still open to
> reasons why that should change. If there is no practical benefit - and I
> mean practical - then we can leave this as an editorial choice.
>
> Cheers!
>
> JF
>
>
>
From: John Foliot
Date: Mon, Aug 13 2012 3:12PM
Subject: Re: Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity and Punctuation settings.
← Previous message | Next message →
Sailesh Panchang wrote:
>
> If the visible linked text is "Annual Report 2012-13" and just for
> argument sake, one decides to convey that it opens in a new window, I
> suppose one would want some sort of a separator there hyphen or
> parenthesis... regardless of whether the text is visible or not.
> So it should be "Annual Report 2012-13 (opens new window)" for
> instance.
> Now if one wishes to keep that notification off-screen, fine, no
> problems.
So you have hit on a plausible use-case, as yes, we do something similar.
HOWEVER, with or without the parenthesis the screen readers I've tested -
with normal or expert verbosity settings - do not pause or announce that the
parenthesis are there. Since this is the case, is there a need to MANDATE
their use, as neither the screen-reader user nor a sighted person will see
them? Include them, don't include them, sure, but that is not the question.
The question is, "should it be mandated from an editorial perspective that
all off-screen text MUST be placed in parenthesis?"
The emergent answer is no.
JF
From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Tue, Aug 14 2012 3:17PM
Subject: Re: Quick Poll for JAWs users: Verbosity and Punctuation settings.
← Previous message | No next message
The question is, "should it be mandated from an editorial perspective that
all off-screen text MUST be placed in parenthesis?"
I too say No ... one simply does not use parenthesis for the heck of it.
For instance if the link was
<a ...>Read more<span class="offscreen">about closing ceremony London
Olympics 2012</span></a>
then one does not need parenthesis.
Simply picture the complete text on the screen or a printed page. If
it is appropriate to use a hyphen or parenthesis for separation, then
do so.
It does not matter if the user is sighted / blind / uses AT with
reading options configured to suit his style.
Sailesh
On 8/13/12, John Foliot < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Sailesh Panchang wrote:
>>
>> If the visible linked text is "Annual Report 2012-13" and just for
>> argument sake, one decides to convey that it opens in a new window, I
>> suppose one would want some sort of a separator there hyphen or
>> parenthesis... regardless of whether the text is visible or not.
>> So it should be "Annual Report 2012-13 (opens new window)" for
>> instance.
>> Now if one wishes to keep that notification off-screen, fine, no
>> problems.
>
> So you have hit on a plausible use-case, as yes, we do something similar.
> HOWEVER, with or without the parenthesis the screen readers I've tested -
> with normal or expert verbosity settings - do not pause or announce that
> the
> parenthesis are there. Since this is the case, is there a need to MANDATE
> their use, as neither the screen-reader user nor a sighted person will see
> them? Include them, don't include them, sure, but that is not the question.
> The question is, "should it be mandated from an editorial perspective that
> all off-screen text MUST be placed in parenthesis?"
>
> The emergent answer is no.
>
> JF
>
>