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Thread: complex table question
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From: Angela French
Date: Fri, Oct 26 2012 5:35PM
Subject: complex table question
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Hello,
On the page linked to here: http://sbctc.edu/college/_hr-benefits-connection-SBRP-TRS3NEW.aspx I have a complex table I have presented. I'm wondering, since there is only one column that splits into two (the TRS 3-hybrid plan column), is it necessary for me to use the id and headers attribute?
Thank you
Angela French
Internet Specialist
State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
360-704-4316
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Fri, Oct 26 2012 8:12PM
Subject: Re: complex table question
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Hi Angela
I'd say, absolutely, you need to. The table seems complex, especially
since the columns themselves contain large amounts of text (one could
certainly argue that the material would be more clearly stated as a
series of tables with headings corresponding to each of the plan
options, but of course we often do not have the freedom to make
optimal choices for how to communicate page content). As it is, I am
wondering why the table does not simply have 4 columns from the start,
TRS plan contributions Employer, and TRS Contributions Employee
(instead of employee I would even use the word "you" to distinguish it
more clearly from "employer", that is one suggestion I would actually
make for an actual change). Using table reading commands I'd very
quickly get lost in the table without the ID and Header tags causing
row and column title being read for each cell in the table, especially
since there are empty cells in it. If you skipped them the table would
become awfully confusing, unfortunately. Probably not the answer you
wanted to hear, but from a screen reader user perspective that is the
truth I must present. ;)
Cheers
-B
On 10/26/12, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hello,
> On the page linked to here:
> http://sbctc.edu/college/_hr-benefits-connection-SBRP-TRS3NEW.aspx I have a
> complex table I have presented. I'm wondering, since there is only one
> column that splits into two (the TRS 3-hybrid plan column), is it necessary
> for me to use the id and headers attribute?
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>
> > > >
From: Angela French
Date: Mon, Oct 29 2012 9:33AM
Subject: Re: complex table question
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Birkir,
I believe I am in a position to suggest to the content owner other ways to present this information. How would you envision this information presented in multiple tables?
Angela French
>Hi Angela
>I'd say, absolutely, you need to. The table seems complex, especially since
>the columns themselves contain large amounts of text (one could certainly
>argue that the material would be more clearly stated as a series of tables
>with headings corresponding to each of the plan options, but of course we
>often do not have the freedom to make optimal choices for how to
>communicate page content
From: Angela French
Date: Mon, Oct 29 2012 9:44AM
Subject: Re: complex table question
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Birkir,
Is there something that can be put in empty cells (N/A perhaps?) that would make them less confusing?
Angela French
>Using table reading commands I'd
>very quickly get lost in the table without the ID and Header tags causing row
>and column title being read for each cell in the table, especially since there
>are empty cells in it. If you skipped them the table would become awfully
>confusing, unfortunately. Probably not the answer you wanted to hear, but
>from a screen reader user perspective that is the truth I must present. ;)
>Cheers -B
>
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Mon, Oct 29 2012 9:54AM
Subject: Re: complex table question
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Angela
As for the empty cells, yes. I like seeing NA in empty cells to tell
you the truth. My problem with the table as it currently stands mostly
stems from the fact that it contains a lot of text. I much prefer text
outside of the table, while the table only contains numbers, words or
very short phrases. When it contains a lot of text it starts feeling
like a layout table, at least for a screen reader user.
You could perhaps make the table 4 columns instead of the TRS column
being split in two, move some of the textual info into a text that
compares the plans, either preceeding or following the table. Again,
these are just my thoughts/impressions, and not strictly speaking
accessibility best practices.
Also it would be good to offer up an Excel document for download that
contains this info in a spreadsheet format. It is not a sufficient
solution on its own, since Excel is somewhat proprietary in nature
(office is not exactly cheap), but for those who use it, are visually
impaired, and need to fully understand comparisons of this nature, it
is tremendously helpful.
I will take another look at the table tonight and send you
impressions, if I come up with something I think may be of use to you.
The original answer stands in that I am very happy to see you used the
table attributes to mark every single cell with row and column
information. It may be a pain in the old behind, but for this type of
table it is absolutely a lifesaver.
Cheers
-B
On 10/29/12, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Birkir,
> Is there something that can be put in empty cells (N/A perhaps?) that would
> make them less confusing?
>
> Angela French
>
>>Using table reading commands I'd
>>very quickly get lost in the table without the ID and Header tags causing
>> row
>>and column title being read for each cell in the table, especially since
>> there
>>are empty cells in it. If you skipped them the table would become awfully
>>confusing, unfortunately. Probably not the answer you wanted to hear, but
>>from a screen reader user perspective that is the truth I must present. ;)
>>Cheers -B
>>
> > > >
From: Angela French
Date: Mon, Oct 29 2012 10:42AM
Subject: Re: complex table question
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Birkir,
Thanks. I've made a few changes and look forward to your review. And to anyone else's who takes a look.
I took the definitions that were in the Vesting and Portability headers and moved them out of the table. I created footnotes from the table to these definitions. I also relabeled the column headers to remove the split TRS 3 column.
I also added "n/a" to empty cells.
http://sbctc.edu/college/_hr-benefits-connection-SBRP-TRS3NEW.aspx#comparison
Angela French
>I will take another look at the table tonight and send you impressions, if I
>come up with something I think may be of use to you.
>The original answer stands in that I am very happy to see you used the table
>attributes to mark every single cell with row and column information. It may
>be a pain in the old behind, but for this type of table it is absolutely a
>lifesaver.
>Cheers
>-B
>
>
From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Mon, Oct 29 2012 10:45AM
Subject: Re: complex table question
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I am seeing this as a 4-col table with TH markup which is fine.
JAWS supports multiple rows designated as col headers so it is
possible to use TH with scope=col.
But other screen readers do not. So the 4-col table format is the
safest if one has the option.
Also:
- definition of vesting and portability do not belong inside the table
semantically ... they are not row headers really. Place them outside.
(Done now!)
- Use list markup for data for below age 35 / over age 35 etc. in
cells that have such content.
One does have to use data tables to present descriptive data at times
and that is fine if the content is structured right.
Sailesh Panchang
On 10/29/12, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Birkir,
> Thanks. I've made a few changes and look forward to your review. And to
> anyone else's who takes a look.
>
> I took the definitions that were in the Vesting and Portability headers and
> moved them out of the table. I created footnotes from the table to these
> definitions. I also relabeled the column headers to remove the split TRS 3
> column.
> I also added "n/a" to empty cells.
>
> http://sbctc.edu/college/_hr-benefits-connection-SBRP-TRS3NEW.aspx#comparison
>
>
> Angela French
>
>
>>I will take another look at the table tonight and send you impressions, if
>> I
>>come up with something I think may be of use to you.
>>The original answer stands in that I am very happy to see you used the
>> table
>>attributes to mark every single cell with row and column information. It
>> may
>>be a pain in the old behind, but for this type of table it is absolutely a
>>lifesaver.
>>Cheers
>>-B
>>
>>
> > > >
From: Rabab Gomaa
Date: Mon, Oct 29 2012 10:50AM
Subject: Re: complex table question
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Hi Angela,
The first empty cell in the table is not a header. It should be in a td.
Replace <th scope="col" width="15%"> </th> with <td width="15%"></th>.
Think to add an abbr to the n/a. Is it not applicable, not available?
e.g. <abbr title="not applicable">n/a</abbr>
Rabab
>>> Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 10/29/2012 12:42 pm >>>
Birkir,
Thanks. I've made a few changes and look forward to your review. And to anyone else's who takes a look.
I took the definitions that were in the Vesting and Portability headers and moved them out of the table. I created footnotes from the table to these definitions. I also relabeled the column headers to remove the split TRS 3 column.
I also added "n/a" to empty cells.
http://sbctc.edu/college/_hr-benefits-connection-SBRP-TRS3NEW.aspx#comparison
Angela French
>I will take another look at the table tonight and send you impressions, if I
>come up with something I think may be of use to you.
>The original answer stands in that I am very happy to see you used the table
>attributes to mark every single cell with row and column information. It may
>be a pain in the old behind, but for this type of table it is absolutely a
>lifesaver.
>Cheers
>-B
>
>
From: Angela French
Date: Mon, Oct 29 2012 10:54AM
Subject: Re: complex table question
← Previous message | No next message
List structure has been incorporated. Thanks.
http://sbctc.edu/college/_hr-benefits-connection-SBRP-TRS3NEW.aspx
Angela French
>- Use list markup for data for below age 35 / over age 35 etc. in cells that have
>such content.
>One does have to use data tables to present descriptive data at times and
>that is fine if the content is structured right.
>Sailesh Panchang
>
>