E-mail List Archives
Thread: PDF language not recognized by screenreaders
Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)
From: Gijs Veyfeyken
Date: Tue, Jan 22 2013 4:58AM
Subject: PDF language not recognized by screenreaders
No previous message | Next message →
Hi,
By following Adobe's guidelines for creating accessible PDF's with InDesign (CS6), I get a perfectly tagged and structured PDF with minimal effort.
There is only one thing I cannot fix. Getting screenreaders (I tested with Jaws & NVDA) to read the PDF in the specified language (Dutch).
In Acrobat Pro X, I manually set the language to "Dutch" in the document properties.
Screenshot: http://images.anysurfer.be/2013-01-22_09-54-38.png
In the tags tree in Acrobat, I've deleted the language property "en-GB" on the root tag <document> which is assigned by InDesign automatically.
Screenshot: http://images.anysurfer.be/2013-01-22_09-53-51.png
Still, NVDA reads the PDF in English. Jaws starts the PDF by saying "American English", then reads it in Dutch.
Does that mean there are other hidden language attributes automatically set to English that I need to delete?
Am I missing something or is this a screenreader problem?
Kind regards,
Gijs Veyfeyken
From: Duff Johnson
Date: Tue, Jan 22 2013 7:19AM
Subject: Re: PDF language not recognized by screenreaders
← Previous message | Next message →
Gijs,
If the content itself (as opposed to the tags) has a language attribute your AT may be reading it.
To discover if such attributes are present, go to the "Content" tab in Acrobat Professional. Within a content container, select a text run. Get that object's properties and you'll see whether or not a language was set.
This screen-shot shows the relevant dialog in Acrobat.
http://duff-johnson.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/content-language.png
If you find the content's (as opposed to the tag's) language attribute has been set to English then this is your problem as it will override the tags (with some software). Content attributes should be manageable in InDesign.
I'd love to know what you find...
Duff Johnson
ISO 32000 Intl. Project Co-Leader, US Chairman
ISO 14289 US Chairman
PDF Association Vice-Chairman
+1 617 283 4226
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://duff-johnson.com
From: Gijs Veyfeyken
Date: Wed, Jan 23 2013 4:03AM
Subject: Re: PDF language not recognized by screenreaders
← Previous message | Next message →
Thank you Duff. You've pointed me in the right direction.
InDesign automatically assigns a language to a paragraph style.
Since my version of InDesign is English, it's set to English UK.
Screenshot dialog Paragraph Style Options > tab Advanced Character Formats
http://images.anysurfer.be/2013-01-23_09-10-07.png
If I open a new document and set the language of the default "basic paragraph" to Dutch,
all other paragraph styles created from that point on, will adopt this setting because they are based on the "basic paragraph".
The items in the content pane of Acrobat now have the correct language property.
Screenshot: http://images.anysurfer.be/Screen_Shot_2013-01-23_at_11.44.20.png
In conclusion:
According to Adobe, setting the language of the PDF on the document level in Acrobat, should do the trick.
This is false. The language properties on content level overrides the language on document level.
As always, making sure the source document is correct (in this case the language of Paragraph Styles in InDesign) avoids problems later on.
Kind regards,
Gijs
---
Gijs Veyfeyken
AnySurfer - towards an accessible internet
A project of Blindenzorg Licht en Liefde vzw
Kunstlaan 24 box 21
1000 Brussels
Belgium
www.anysurfer.be
On 22-jan.-2013, at 20:00, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> Send WebAIM-Forum mailing list submissions to
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://list.webaim.org/mailman/listinfo/webaim-forum
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of WebAIM-Forum digest..."
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Accessibility and geographical maps (Robert Jaquiss)
> 2. Re: Accessibility and geographical maps (Ron Stewart)
> 3. How best to notify screen readers of updated section of page
> (aria live regions?) (Birkir R. Gunnarsson)
> 4. PDF language not recognized by screenreaders (Gijs Veyfeyken)
> 5. Re: How best to notify screen readers of updated section of
> page (aria live regions?) (Steve Green)
> 6. Re: How best to notify screen readers of updated section of
> page (aria live regions?) (Steve Green)
> 7. Re: PDF language not recognized by screenreaders (Duff Johnson)
> 8. Re: Accessibility and geographical maps
> (Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO)
> 9. GIS (Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO)
>
> From: "Robert Jaquiss" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and geographical maps
> Date: 22 januari 2013 00:07:00 CET
> To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
>
> Hello:
>
> The audio Graphing Calculator (AGC) from ViewPlus Technologies is only
> useful for displaying graphs generated by equations or for displaying data
> points.
>
> Regards,
> Robert
>
>
>
From: Trafford, Logan
Date: Wed, Jan 23 2013 6:33AM
Subject: Re: PDF language not recognized by screenreaders
← Previous message | Next message →
We do a similar thing with our bilingual Word documents. That is, the overall document will be set to English (Canada) while we will create (for example) a normal (English) style and then an equivalent
Normal (French) style by simply changing the language setting within the style itself. These then get carried over properly when converting to PDF (using Pro).
Logan
From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Jan 23 2013 8:54AM
Subject: Re: PDF language not recognized by screenreaders
← Previous message | Next message →
> Thank you Duff. You've pointed me in the right direction.
You are welcome.
> InDesign automatically assigns a language to a paragraph style.
> Since my version of InDesign is English, it's set to English UK.
There we have it...
> In conclusion:
> According to Adobe, setting the language of the PDF on the document level in Acrobat, should do the trick.
> This is false.
Well
not exactly.
It's true in cases where (a) the content and (b) the tags themselves do NOT have language attributes set, which is most of the time (except where InDesign is concerned, of course).
> The language properties on content level overrides the language on document level.
Yes, and it's correct that they should do so.
That said, software that allows the user to set the language property for the whole document should be smarter than to allow such confusion to (understandably) propagate. For example, it would be helpful if when setting the global language the user was advised of content-level language settings and was provided the option to replace such settings.
> As always, making sure the source document is correct (in this case the language of Paragraph Styles in InDesign) avoids problems later on.
As always
;-)
Duff Johnson
ISO 32000 Intl. Project Co-Leader, US Chairman
ISO 14289 US Chairman
PDF Association Vice-Chairman
+1 617 283 4226
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://duff-johnson.com
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu, Jan 24 2013 9:15AM
Subject: Re: PDF language not recognized by screenreaders
← Previous message | Next message →
Gijs,
Thanks for looking into this - as a result of what you've pointed out we'll get the best practices documents updated to reflect the information more accurately.
If you haven't found this already, here's some additional information for you that may help.
InDesign doesn't have an explicit "document language" setting, but it is intuiting one from the default paragraph style language setting. To change the default paragraph style language setting, open InDesign but do not open any individual files. Go to the paragraph styles panel and edit the basic paragraph style's language setting. By doing this, the next time you create a document and export it to PDF, the document language will be what you set it to.
You still may have paragraphs or words within the documents that have a different language, but once you've set the default to Dutch (or whatever) every new paragraph will have that as the default, and you can change it if you need a paragraph style which is for French text within a primarily Dutch document.
It is worth noting that the PDF that is created will have the default language set in the tags for the first <document> tag, but the only languages that show up in the tags after that are for languages which are different from the default. For example, I set my default to Dutch and have three paragraphs and the 2nd paragraph has a different paragraph style and it is set to French. The PDF will have Dutch set on the <document> tag and French set on the second paragraph, but no language on any other tags as the Dutch setting on the parent tag for everything else cascades down so that everything else is in Dutch.
What isn't set is the document language setting as shown in the document properties. This is simple to do, but I completely agree that we need to simplify this process. I'll share this information with the InDesign team and work to get this addressed.
Hope this helps.
Thanks,
AWK
Andrew Kirkpatrick
Group Product Manager, Accessibility
Adobe Systems
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://twitter.com/awkawk
http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Thu, Jan 24 2013 10:31AM
Subject: Re: PDF language not recognized by screenreaders
← Previous message | Next message →
Andrew wrote: "InDesign doesn't have an explicit "document language"
setting, but it is intuiting one from the default paragraph style language
setting."
Thanks for this critical info, Andrew.
Want to clarify what you said: when you say "default paragraph style," do
you mean InDesign's built-in paragraph style called [Basic Paragraph] that
appears in square brackets in the styles panel?
"What isn't set is the document language setting as shown in the document
properties. ... I'll share this information with the InDesign team and
work to get this addressed."
This would be wonderful!
Most graphic designers do not use [Basic Paragraph] at all to format their
InDesign layouts. It was panned by the design community when it came out a
few versions back, mainly due to ignorance and a lack of foresight, and so
most designers just ignore it and instead use other styles to format their
body text. Therefore, assuming that the settings of [Basic Paragraph] will
control things might not work for many graphic designers.
Question: if a paragraph has its language set to, say, French, will child
styles based on it also inherit - and retain in the PDF - the French
language setting? Since [Basic Paragraph] sets the language for the entire
document, how does the language setting affect child styles of other styles?
Example of some paragraph styles and language settings:
[Basic Paragraph] = Dutch for the entire document, by default in the
language setting.
Sidebar Text = French for the paragraph language setting.
Sidebar Bullets (based on Sidebar Text) = ? Does it inherit the
French language setting from the parent style, Sidebar Text?
-Bevi Chagnon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.
- It's our 32nd year! -
From: Duff Johnson
Date: Thu, Jan 24 2013 10:39AM
Subject: Re: PDF language not recognized by screenreaders
← Previous message | Next message →
> What isn't set is the document language setting as shown in the document properties. This is simple to do, but I completely agree that we need to simplify this process. I'll share this information with the InDesign team and work to get this addressed.
This will certainly help, but it's not quite to the point.
Gijs's point - as I understood it - was that setting the document language in Acrobat did not produce the desired result (i.e., AT using that language). This is, simply, because the document language setting in Acrobat acts on document-level metadata rather than on the content (or on the tags, for that matter).
Insofar as Acrobat is a "PDF editor" it would make sense to have the document-langauge management feature include the ability to (optionally) over-ride existing tag and content-level language settings.
Preferably, the user should not be forced to return to the source InDesign file to address this problem in a reasonable manner.
Duff.
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu, Jan 24 2013 2:27PM
Subject: Re: PDF language not recognized by screenreaders
← Previous message | Next message →
This will certainly help, but it's not quite to the point.
Gijs's point - as I understood it - was that setting the document language in Acrobat did not produce the desired result (i.e., AT using that language). This is, simply, because the document language setting in Acrobat acts on document-level metadata rather than on the content (or on the tags, for that matter).
[AWK] The result, while undesirable, is entirely consistent with the way that PDF and AT are supposed to behave though. InDesign is using a process to set the language on the top-level <document> tag, and everything underneath it uses that language unless it has a different language defined. So the child elements under the <document> tag may specify a different language, and any children of those will follow the language of their parent tag.
It works in the other direction also, and that is where the problem is - the parent of the <document> tag in the language hierarchy is the document catalog's /lang entry. When this is changed by setting the language in the document properties dialog in Acrobat the document's primary language is set to that language, but then the first tag (which contains all document content as child tags within it) redefines the language again.
My recommendation is that InDesign not use the <document> tags as the destination for the language (however determined for the document level in InDesign - I'll also be recommending a better way than currently employed) but to use the document catalog /lang entry.
Insofar as Acrobat is a "PDF editor" it would make sense to have the document-langauge management feature include the ability to (optionally) over-ride existing tag and content-level language settings.
Preferably, the user should not be forced to return to the source InDesign file to address this problem in a reasonable manner.
[AWK] Sure. I don't think that they are, even now. For example:
If I have a document with 100 paragraphs (or 1000, just picking a large number that I wouldn't want to manually and individually adjust) and I want this document to be in French but my InDesign thinks that the document is EN-US. I also have an English paragraph in my document. I make sure that the paragraph styles all reflect the correct language and export to PDF. I test and the language needs to be defined for the document, per the test in Acrobat, so I:
1) Add French as the language in the document properties dialog. This won't change how anything is read yet because the <document> tag has EN-US as the language.
2) I delete the language from the <document> tag. Now the entire document reads in French. This includes the English paragraph because InDesign was smart enough to not need to define the language for that paragraph as it thought that EN-US was the document language so it didn't need to be reassigned. All of the paragraphs which were set to French do have this indicated, which duplicates the document level setting in #1, but that's not a problem.
That seems like a process I'd like to avoid, but isn't unreasonable, as repair goes.
Are you thinking about a different use case that is more problematic?
AWK
From: Duff Johnson
Date: Thu, Jan 24 2013 3:18PM
Subject: Re: PDF language not recognized by screenreaders
← Previous message | No next message
On Jan 24, 2013, at 4:27 PM, Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote:
>
> Gijs's point - as I understood it - was that setting the document language in Acrobat did not produce the desired result (i.e., AT using that language). This is, simply, because the document language setting in Acrobat acts on document-level metadata rather than on the content (or on the tags, for that matter).
>
> [AWK] The result, while undesirable, is entirely consistent with the way that PDF and AT are supposed to behave though.
That's true - it's simply that Acrobat's representing functionality that isn't being delivered. The user thought that Acrobat would actually enforce (change content attributes) a language change; not an unreasonable expectation or desire.
> My recommendation is that InDesign not use the <document> tags as the destination for the language (however determined for the document level in InDesign - I'll also be recommending a better way than currently employed) but to use the document catalog /lang entry.
Excellent; a nice economical approach that solves this particular problem.
> Insofar as Acrobat is a "PDF editor" it would make sense to have the document-langauge management feature include the ability to (optionally) over-ride existing tag and content-level language settings.
>
> Preferably, the user should not be forced to return to the source InDesign file to address this problem in a reasonable manner.
>
> [AWK] Sure. I don't think that they are, even now. For example:
> If I have a document with 100 paragraphs (or 1000, just picking a large number that I wouldn't want to manually and individually adjust) and I want this document to be in French but my InDesign thinks that the document is EN-US. I also have an English paragraph in my document. I make sure that the paragraph styles all reflect the correct language and export to PDF. I test and the language needs to be defined for the document, per the test in Acrobat, so I:
> 1) Add French as the language in the document properties dialog. This won't change how anything is read yet because the <document> tag has EN-US as the language.
> 2) I delete the language from the <document> tag. Now the entire document reads in French. This includes the English paragraph because InDesign was smart enough to not need to define the language for that paragraph as it thought that EN-US was the document language so it didn't need to be reassigned. All of the paragraphs which were set to French do have this indicated, which duplicates the document level setting in #1, but that's not a problem.
>
> That seems like a process I'd like to avoid, but isn't unreasonable, as repair goes.
I agree - it's not an unreasonable work around for that use case. To enhance it, Acrobat should (probably) notice that the user's selected a language that clashes with the lang set in the <Document> tag, and offer to fix the tag to match (or possibly, just go ahead and do it without asking).
> Are you thinking about a different use case that is more problematic?
I'm thinking generically of the situation in which users try to manage lang settings post-creation but run into collisions when lower nodes frustrate their intent (and the implied capability of the software).
One use case would be this: users can and will consciously or otherwise write words, sentences or paragraphs of text in languages other than the one for which their application is currently set. It's a pretty standard-issue mistake. When I "mark selected text" as German in MS Word, I don't see any visual indication. I could easily forget...
In such cases the PDF gets made with incorrect lang settings. Depending on the creating application, these may be found in the content, the tags, or both.
When it comes down to it, it's the intent of the Acrobat user editing the tags in the PDF that needs to be accommodated in Acrobat. We have to assume that they are trying to fix the file. That means, essentially, that lang changes made to tags in Acrobat should (optionally) warn of conflicts "below" and offer to harmonize them. The Acrobat user could then "clean the slate", with the next move being to come in and set the lang on this or that tag as per their judgement.
Greedy for fancy software as I am, I'd also want the ability to navigate the PDF based on lang settings in tags or content to preview the output file from that perspective, but that's wishful thinking, I'm sure!
Duff.